2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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ENGINE TUNER
ENGINE TUNER
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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yelistener wrote:
04 Aug 2019, 17:00
Somehow Mercedes is much better with race pace and tyre management than RB. I guess Saturday' Red Bull pole WAS a bit of "deception" that made us think the RB really caught up with Mercedes' chassis.
Merc could be massively more fuel efficient, running 10-15k less fuel. That could explain it.

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GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 03:37
yelistener wrote:
04 Aug 2019, 17:00
Somehow Mercedes is much better with race pace and tyre management than RB. I guess Saturday' Red Bull pole WAS a bit of "deception" that made us think the RB really caught up with Mercedes' chassis.
Merc could be massively more fuel efficient, running 10-15k less fuel. That could explain it.
The word from last year was that, due to high fuel efficiency, Mercedes was running 5-10 kilos lesser than Ferrari. This year though, at the beginning of the season, there were reports that due to change of front wing they lost as much as 2.5 seconds worth of downforce loss. So Mercedes decided to bolt as much downforce as possible, even though it was adding more drag penalty than their previous philosophy. They decided to compromise on PU efficiency and started carrying more fuel (at around 110 kilos) this season to push their PU harder to overcome the drag penalty.

Due to their high downforce, they could switch on the tires better, which was a big advantage whereas Ferrari and Red Bull struggled to work the tires. Red Bull though has improved vastly, but Ferrari has struggled to put downforce on the car. As the season progresses and with newer upgrades, Mercedes might be trying to remove as much drag as possible, so that they can reduce the weight they carry.

The reason why Mercedes is slower on straights is probably due to them carrying more drag than the other two, but it also makes them faster through downforce sections.

Capharol
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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Pyrone89 wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 23:27
sprint car76 wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 23:12
Got a question for you all. How many of you thought, at the moment Hamilton went into the pits for his last stop, that he had a hope of catching verstap? I'm a hamilton fan and i thought "You just screwed up again" Still thinking about germany i thought "Here we go again" The only chance i thought he had was because he had pushed verstap so hard in the middle stint. But honestly after the first few laps after his stop when he was only gaining tenths of a second i thought it was over. So be honest now.
In himdsight there was still a small possibility if they had pitted Verstappen in lap 57.
and again you are utterly wrong i and several others wrote to you aswell, even Horner and Verstappen said it, but you seems to be deaf and blind towards these explanations.... #-o

they couldn't take Verstappen in, that would mean losing track position :roll:
(no i am not gonna explain the rest)

Bill_Kar
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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sprint car76 wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 23:12
Got a question for you all. How many of you thought, at the moment Hamilton went into the pits for his last stop, that he had a hope of catching verstap? I'm a hamilton fan and i thought "You just screwed up again" Still thinking about germany i thought "Here we go again" The only chance i thought he had was because he had pushed verstap so hard in the middle stint. But honestly after the first few laps after his stop when he was only gaining tenths of a second i thought it was over. So be honest now.
My father literally stopped watching after gap was stuck at 15.5 for a couple of laps or more.

He never thought that this would work, I didn't as well TBH, but I'm not that great as other members here who knew right away :D

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Pyrone89
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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Capharol wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 07:35
Pyrone89 wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 23:27
sprint car76 wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 23:12
Got a question for you all. How many of you thought, at the moment Hamilton went into the pits for his last stop, that he had a hope of catching verstap? I'm a hamilton fan and i thought "You just screwed up again" Still thinking about germany i thought "Here we go again" The only chance i thought he had was because he had pushed verstap so hard in the middle stint. But honestly after the first few laps after his stop when he was only gaining tenths of a second i thought it was over. So be honest now.
In himdsight there was still a small possibility if they had pitted Verstappen in lap 57.
and again you are utterly wrong i and several others wrote to you aswell, even Horner and Verstappen said it, but you seems to be deaf and blind towards these explanations.... #-o

they couldn't take Verstappen in, that would mean losing track position :roll:
(no i am not gonna explain the rest)
Dude chill and read my post better. Cool down the aggression to other posters, we are allowed to disagree.

Yes he would lose track position but in hindsight he would so anyway. pitting him on lap 57 before the gap started to dramatically reduce would have put him on softs 3 laps old (quali tyres) against Lewis on 10 laps old mediums. Perhaps he then would have had a fighting chance to overcome the faster Merc package. But I also get that they dont wanted to give up track position
True GOATs don’t need the help of superior material to win.

Tom Brady, Usain Bolt are true GOATs.

ubuysa
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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epo wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 21:50
NathanOlder wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 19:23
going in to the corner....

http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=99b ... 4edcb95dda


and coming out......

http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=f61 ... 3e4ca43fa6

Now I can't wait for your reply, as I know you just simply can't admit to a Max mistake.

Its a mistake mate. just swallow it fella
So what is it what your trying to achieve here? Oh my driver is so much better then yours and vice versa bs. We had a great fight and some nice couple of last races. This topic always is about defending or offending the winners and losers based on personal favourite drivers and your always one of them, grow up please, thanks.
Agreed. I joined this forum hoping to get way from the MAX is a better driver than HAM rubbish that you see on lesser fora. It's not just about the drivers, F1 is a TEAM sport and the winners are the team who get their car(s) over the line first. Sun Tzu in 'The Art of War' said that "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting" and that's exactly what Mercedes did in Hungary (at least with one car) and it was well done.

Surely we all realise that you're NEVER going to be able to compare any two drivers unless they are in exactly the same car with exactly the same tyres and exactly the same setup, and even then the driver in front will always have an advantage due to clean airflow. We are fortunate as spectators to have them both in cars where they will give us many battles to enjoy.

If you want to criticise drivers then criticise BOT and GAS. Had HAM managed to get past VER on the hards then Red Bull would have used the same second stop tactic. The real reason why Mercedes were able to get way with that second stop, and why Red Bull would have done it too, was because neither GAS nor BOT were where they should have been. Red Bull lost, not because of anything VER did or didn't do, they lost because GAS didn't do his job....

Capharol
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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Pyrone89 wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 08:47
Capharol wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 07:35
Pyrone89 wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 23:27

In himdsight there was still a small possibility if they had pitted Verstappen in lap 57.
and again you are utterly wrong i and several others wrote to you aswell, even Horner and Verstappen said it, but you seems to be deaf and blind towards these explanations.... #-o

they couldn't take Verstappen in, that would mean losing track position :roll:
(no i am not gonna explain the rest)
Dude chill and read my post better. Cool down the aggression to other posters, we are allowed to disagree.

Yes he would lose track position but in hindsight he would so anyway. pitting him on lap 57 before the gap started to dramatically reduce would have put him on softs 3 laps old (quali tyres) against Lewis on 10 laps old mediums. Perhaps he then would have had a fighting chance to overcome the faster Merc package. But I also get that they dont wanted to give up track position
again No... Max couldn't win this race (only if HAM his car would brake down), but okay then listen at least to what real experts have to say.... and they say the same as i do ... but hey you seems to know it better :roll: , maybe Red Bull is searching for a better strategist after Hungary GP #-o

sosic2121
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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Capharol wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 09:33
Pyrone89 wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 08:47
Capharol wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 07:35


and again you are utterly wrong i and several others wrote to you aswell, even Horner and Verstappen said it, but you seems to be deaf and blind towards these explanations.... #-o

they couldn't take Verstappen in, that would mean losing track position :roll:
(no i am not gonna explain the rest)
Dude chill and read my post better. Cool down the aggression to other posters, we are allowed to disagree.

Yes he would lose track position but in hindsight he would so anyway. pitting him on lap 57 before the gap started to dramatically reduce would have put him on softs 3 laps old (quali tyres) against Lewis on 10 laps old mediums. Perhaps he then would have had a fighting chance to overcome the faster Merc package. But I also get that they dont wanted to give up track position
again No... Max couldn't win this race (only if HAM his car would brake down), but okay then listen at least to what real experts have to say.... and they say the same as i do ... but hey you seems to know it better :roll: , maybe Red Bull is searching for a better strategist after Hungary GP #-o
Only way was to pit in the same lap as Lewis did, and hope Lewis wouldn't stay out. Basically impossible.
People praise Mercedes move as stroke of genius, while it's a textbook move done many times before.

This all was possible by pace advantage Mercedes had, which was obviously more than 1.5/10s! And in the end it actually didn't work until Max hit a cliff.

Maybe if they prolonged 1st stint by lap or 2(while risking undercut!) or if max was easier on his hard tires after the pit stop(risking over cut!) maybe he could avoid the cliff.

One more maybe, if RB went for M instead of Mercedes, maybe Lewis would hit the cliff (his H tires were surely damaged from pushing hard and mistakes he done).

Capharol
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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sosic2121 wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 13:59
Capharol wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 09:33
Pyrone89 wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 08:47


Dude chill and read my post better. Cool down the aggression to other posters, we are allowed to disagree.

Yes he would lose track position but in hindsight he would so anyway. pitting him on lap 57 before the gap started to dramatically reduce would have put him on softs 3 laps old (quali tyres) against Lewis on 10 laps old mediums. Perhaps he then would have had a fighting chance to overcome the faster Merc package. But I also get that they dont wanted to give up track position
again No... Max couldn't win this race (only if HAM his car would brake down), but okay then listen at least to what real experts have to say.... and they say the same as i do ... but hey you seems to know it better :roll: , maybe Red Bull is searching for a better strategist after Hungary GP #-o
Only way was to pit in the same lap as Lewis did, and hope Lewis wouldn't stay out. Basically impossible.
People praise Mercedes move as stroke of genius, while it's a textbook move done many times before.

This all was possible by pace advantage Mercedes had, which was obviously more than 1.5/10s! And in the end it actually didn't work until Max hit a cliff.

Maybe if they prolonged 1st stint by lap or 2(while risking undercut!) or if max was easier on his hard tires after the pit stop(risking over cut!) maybe he could avoid the cliff.

One more maybe, if RB went for M instead of Mercedes, maybe Lewis would hit the cliff (his H tires were surely damaged from pushing hard and mistakes he done).
i posted a Video from Marc Priestley where he explains the strategy
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=27821&start=3675

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Big Tea
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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sosic2121 wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 13:59
Capharol wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 09:33
Pyrone89 wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 08:47


Dude chill and read my post better. Cool down the aggression to other posters, we are allowed to disagree.

Yes he would lose track position but in hindsight he would so anyway. pitting him on lap 57 before the gap started to dramatically reduce would have put him on softs 3 laps old (quali tyres) against Lewis on 10 laps old mediums. Perhaps he then would have had a fighting chance to overcome the faster Merc package. But I also get that they dont wanted to give up track position
again No... Max couldn't win this race (only if HAM his car would brake down), but okay then listen at least to what real experts have to say.... and they say the same as i do ... but hey you seems to know it better :roll: , maybe Red Bull is searching for a better strategist after Hungary GP #-o
Only way was to pit in the same lap as Lewis did, and hope Lewis wouldn't stay out. Basically impossible.
People praise Mercedes move as stroke of genius, while it's a textbook move done many times before.

This all was possible by pace advantage Mercedes had, which was obviously more than 1.5/10s! And in the end it actually didn't work until Max hit a cliff.

Maybe if they prolonged 1st stint by lap or 2(while risking undercut!) or if max was easier on his hard tires after the pit stop(risking over cut!) maybe he could avoid the cliff.

One more maybe, if RB went for M instead of Mercedes, maybe Lewis would hit the cliff (his H tires were surely damaged from pushing hard and mistakes he done).
As I and others have said, this was only possible because of the positions of the other cars. Second in their team and Ferrari.
We would have expected at least 2 cars to have been in that gap had all things been equal. Mercedes could have called their own car but had Max team mate of a Ferrari or two been there it wound not even have been considered.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Capharol
Capharol
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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Big Tea wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 14:18
sosic2121 wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 13:59
Capharol wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 09:33

again No... Max couldn't win this race (only if HAM his car would brake down), but okay then listen at least to what real experts have to say.... and they say the same as i do ... but hey you seems to know it better :roll: , maybe Red Bull is searching for a better strategist after Hungary GP #-o
Only way was to pit in the same lap as Lewis did, and hope Lewis wouldn't stay out. Basically impossible.
People praise Mercedes move as stroke of genius, while it's a textbook move done many times before.

This all was possible by pace advantage Mercedes had, which was obviously more than 1.5/10s! And in the end it actually didn't work until Max hit a cliff.

Maybe if they prolonged 1st stint by lap or 2(while risking undercut!) or if max was easier on his hard tires after the pit stop(risking over cut!) maybe he could avoid the cliff.

One more maybe, if RB went for M instead of Mercedes, maybe Lewis would hit the cliff (his H tires were surely damaged from pushing hard and mistakes he done).
As I and others have said, this was only possible because of the positions of the other cars. Second in their team and Ferrari.
We would have expected at least 2 cars to have been in that gap had all things been equal. Mercedes could have called their own car but had Max team mate of a Ferrari or two been there it wound not even have been considered.
exactly.... Verstappen was lucky but unlucky aswell.

1) because the two had the fastest car and the others couldn't keep up, the gap was to big between the two of them and the rest.
2) if he had let Hamilton pass when they were on the Hard compound, Verstappen could have played the trick Hamilton did on him
so it was an advantage to have the pace and a disadvantage
it was an advantage to be 1st in the race and it was a disadvantage .....
Last edited by Capharol on 06 Aug 2019, 14:23, edited 1 time in total.

erudite450
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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sosic2121 wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 13:59
One more maybe, if RB went for M instead of Mercedes, maybe Lewis would hit the cliff (his H tires were surely damaged from pushing hard and mistakes he done).
When did he make a mistake?

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GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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Capharol wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 14:19
2) if he had let Hamilton pass when they were on the Hard compound, Verstappen could have played the trick Hamilton did on him
Mercedes was the faster race car in Hungary. Verstappen couldn't have pulled what Lewis did. If Lewis would have gotten ahead, he would have pulled a much bigger margin on those Hard tyres than what Max managed.

So even if Max would have pitted with 21 laps to go, he would probably have had a lot more than 20 seconds that Lewis had when he came out of second stop. Even if with conservative calculations, if that gap would have been 25 seconds, then Mercedes would have pit Lewis too in the very next lap! Lewis just needed to be ahead of Max by 3 more seconds to cover an undercut.

ENGINE TUNER
ENGINE TUNER
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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ubuysa wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 09:04
epo wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 21:50
NathanOlder wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 19:23
going in to the corner....

http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=99b ... 4edcb95dda


and coming out......

http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=f61 ... 3e4ca43fa6

Now I can't wait for your reply, as I know you just simply can't admit to a Max mistake.

Its a mistake mate. just swallow it fella
So what is it what your trying to achieve here? Oh my driver is so much better then yours and vice versa bs. We had a great fight and some nice couple of last races. This topic always is about defending or offending the winners and losers based on personal favourite drivers and your always one of them, grow up please, thanks.
Agreed. I joined this forum hoping to get way from the MAX is a better driver than HAM rubbish that you see on lesser fora. It's not just about the drivers, F1 is a TEAM sport and the winners are the team who get their car(s) over the line first. Sun Tzu in 'The Art of War' said that "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting" and that's exactly what Mercedes did in Hungary (at least with one car) and it was well done.

Surely we all realise that you're NEVER going to be able to compare any two drivers unless they are in exactly the same car with exactly the same tyres and exactly the same setup, and even then the driver in front will always have an advantage due to clean airflow. We are fortunate as spectators to have them both in cars where they will give us many battles to enjoy.

Had HAM managed to get past VER on the hards then Red Bull would have used the same second stop tactic. The real reason why Mercedes were able to get way with that second stop, and why Red Bull would have done it too, was because neither GAS nor BOT were where they should have been. Red Bull lost, not because of anything VER did or didn't do, they lost because GAS didn't do his job....
Good post but not necessarily, HAM had enough pace that had he been able to pull off the epic "around the outside" t4 pass, he would have gapped VER enough that the undercut wouldn't have worked and also HAM's gap would give him enough time to pit the next lap after VER pitted.

Capharol
Capharol
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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GPR -A wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 15:02
Capharol wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 14:19
2) if he had let Hamilton pass when they were on the Hard compound, Verstappen could have played the trick Hamilton did on him
Mercedes was the faster race car in Hungary. Verstappen couldn't have pulled what Lewis did. If Lewis would have gotten ahead, he would have pulled a much bigger margin on those Hard tyres than what Max managed.

So even if Max would have pitted with 21 laps to go, he would probably have had a lot more than 20 seconds that Lewis had when he came out of second stop. Even if with conservative calculations, if that gap would have been 25 seconds, then Mercedes would have pit Lewis too in the very next lap! Lewis just needed to be ahead of Max by 3 more seconds to cover an undercut.
Although then would Hamilton be on the Hard compound and could not have pitted.
But I agree, it was a bit of dreaming from my side