Has Red Bull pissed away the WC?

[rayden]

so, basically your favourite driver is losing so your looking for excuses as to why this is happening?

heres something to chew on WB

As much as I think Webber has done a superb job this year, love what the bloke stands for and would dearly love to see him win this year's championship, Vettel is a good guy too and you can't be other than impressed by his current form under pressure.

For the second successive race there was just seven hundredths of a second between the pair in Korean qualifying, which equates to around four metres, or less than the length of a Red Bull RB6 if you prefer.

Every time that happens I feel frustrated on Webber's behalf because, probably, he's done the better job. Why? Because when you're 6ft2ins and at least 10 kilos heavier than the little guy in the other car no matter how drawn your face looks, you can't play with the ballast and optimise set-up as much as he can. It's fractions, but that's all we're talking about.

You can't saw your legs off and the problem is never going to go away but to consistently get that close to someone as quick as Vettel and often beat him, is a damned good effort. Compounding the problem, every time it happens you get lumbered with the dirty side of the grid and are often disadvantaged against the guy starting behind you, which is a rude slap in the face when these cars are as hard to pass as they are.

[Mysticf1]

This is the list so far:

• spark plug failure in Bahrain (13 points)
• loose wheel in Australia (25 points)
• broken brake disk in Barcelona (3 points) (outpaced by Webber all weekend)
• defect chassis in Monaco (7 points) (never proven , outpaced by Webber all weekend)
• broken rear suspension linkage and wishbone in Turkey (25 points)(lost 18 points due to incompetent overtaking)
• leaking gear box in Montreal (3 points)
• collapsed nose box in Silverstone
• steering wheel glitch in Germany (10 points)

[WhiteBlue]

MysticF1, the broken chassis at the front suspension linkage point is well documented. The only thing unknown is when the damage actually happened. It is certain the damage was present when the chassis was fluxed after the Monaco race. The damage could have easily occurred in China or at FP1 in Spain because the chassis was last fluxed before the Asian fly aways.

You do yourself and your man no favor to deny obvious facts. Red Bull has confirmed this issue at least twice. During the Turkish GP and later between Silverstone and Germany when Marko listed all the reliability issues on Vettel's car.

The discussion is pointless anyway because just the undeniable cases of technical failures while leading a race are adding up to a loss of 63 points. So why are we even disputing the other 35 points? It is sufficient to show that Vettel had another five serious reliability issues which damaged his championship standing.

@ rayden
Webber's physical attributes are his personal handicap and no other driver can be blamed for his decision to take up motor racing with this handicap. The team has tried to help him with a choice of the lightest chassis and components as you should well know and provides a chassis that is sufficiently wide and long for his size. What the commentator conveniently forgot was the fact that Webber had a brand new engine which should be worth 2 tenth in qualifying. So the true difference in qualifying in Korea was much bigger than he made believe.

[antsyd]

What about this:

MW: 75kgs
SV: 60kgs

Qualifying Japan: +0.068
Qualifying Korea: +0.074

Thoughts??

[xpensive]

so, basically your favourite driver is losing so your looking for excuses as to why this is happening?

heres something to chew on WB

As much as I think Webber has done a superb job this year, love what the bloke stands for and would dearly love to see him win this year's championship, Vettel is a good guy too and you can't be other than impressed by his current form under pressure.

For the second successive race there was just seven hundredths of a second between the pair in Korean qualifying, which equates to around four metres, or less than the length of a Red Bull RB6 if you prefer.

Every time that happens I feel frustrated on Webber's behalf because, probably, he's done the better job. Why? Because when you're 6ft2ins and at least 10 kilos heavier than the little guy in the other car no matter how drawn your face looks, you can't play with the ballast and optimise set-up as much as he can. It's fractions, but that's all we're talking about.

You can't saw your legs off and the problem is never going to go away but to consistently get that close to someone as quick as Vettel and often beat him, is a damned good effort. Compounding the problem, every time it happens you get lumbered with the dirty side of the grid and are often disadvantaged against the guy starting behind you, which is a rude slap in the face when these cars are as hard to pass as they are.

Xcellent point, the other thing is that the body-mass of the driver has a much higher CofG than any ballast, 15 kg is a lot.

[zeph]

If the Red Bull car had the reliability that one expects from a WCC car those points had not been lost.

=D> Of course, another explanation would be that Webber drives about as fast but without breaking the car.

He has brought the car home in the points on all but two occassions this season. He is in fact the most consistent driver this season, nobody else has finished in the points as often as he has. The two DNF's were because of crashes, not mechanical failures.

That proves that either

a) the RBR is a reliable car, or
b) Webber is a miracle-worker who can bring an unreliable POS to the finish even when the great Vettel can't.

Take your pick.


BTW, for the record: I think Vettel is a fantastic driver and I don't doubt that he will bag the title one day soon, if not this year. But your monomania on the subject is absurd and in need of some counter-balance. Mark Webber has beaten Vettel on several occassions this year, and vice versa as well.

Fair and square. No big deal.

On a different note: Ecclestone has got his money on Vettel this year, and I would not want to bet against him... I am not gonna be surprised if the kid still bags it in the last race.

[damo46]

WB Look at the score board champ. Why is vettel 4th, sure a couple of bad races, but the fastest car and being beaten by a team mate who apparently is sh*t and 15kg heavier

Alonso was 50 odd points behind and now leads.

PS Marko makes excuses for vettel because its his driver, he hasnt mentioned anything positive regarding webber at all this season

[Paul]

Reliability isn't the holy grail of F1 racing, speed is. Good qualy + risk management during the race is the magic formula of success, and Red Bull obviously haven't mastered that second part. Even if Vettel does kill his car purely because of a natural speed advantage over Webber, it is still in his best interests not to persuade the team to make the car more reliable (=slower), but to communicate & cooperate better with them during races.

[andrew]

I see this one is still rumbling on so I'll wade in with my tupence 'apney.

The simple fact (and the only one that matters when all is said and done) concerning the Red Bull drivers is who has the most points.

Webber = 220
Vettel = 206

No points are given for simply being the fastest. There are numerous other factors which all come under the banner of Luck. All Champions have been lucky at some stage in their championship year.

[Giblet]

That proves that either

a) the RBR is a reliable car, or
b) Webber is a miracle-worker who can bring an unreliable POS to the finish even when the great Vettel can't.

Ahem, leaving only two options does not prove anything. Sometimes you flip a coin, and 6 times in a row you get tails each time.

Vettel could just have bad luck with the car breaking and Webber could have good luck with it not breaking.

[spacer]

What about this:

MW: 75kgs
SV: 60kgs

Qualifying Japan: +0.068
Qualifying Korea: +0.074

Thoughts??

The minimum weight of the car is always defined as car + driver, so MW's car will run less ballast. So the weight difference won't do, besides from the minor increase in CoG perhaps?

[xpensive]

Define "a minor increase", 15 kg xtra at some 300-400 mm above where Webber's ballast would have been?

[imightbewrong]

@ rayden
Webber's physical attributes are his personal handicap and no other driver can be blamed for his decision to take up motor racing with this handicap. The team has tried to help him with a choice of the lightest chassis and components as you should well know and provides a chassis that is sufficiently wide and long for his size. What the commentator conveniently forgot was the fact that Webber had a brand new engine which should be worth 2 tenth in qualifying. So the true difference in qualifying in Korea was much bigger than he made believe.

You are truly hilarious WB. Funny you should take that example, how come you didn't take up Suzuka were the situation was reversed and Vettel had a new engine and only qualified +0.068 faster!

I think most here don't have anything against Vettel but are just arguing against you being so completely biased. Take a step back and try and be fair minded, it would do you good.

[Giblet]

Have you seen the size of Vettel's head? That has to balance out the COG with Webber right there.

[autogyro]

Renault engines...........hmmmm