Has Red Bull pissed away the WC?

[BreezyRacer]

Well it's been just two weeks or so since Turkey and the Vettel/Webber crash. It's clear from Red Bull's actions that they are indeed promoting baby Schumi over Webber, as witnessed in Canada when they kept Webber behind Vettel to the end despite the tremendous speed differential between the two cars at the end. While all of this does tend to raise Webber's stature with F1 insiders it also seems to indicate that the only way Red Bull will win the WC is if it's Vettel leading the team to it.

After the recent success of McLaren Turkey looks to be a turning point for the season and the beginning of a defensive pose for team Red Bull. McLaren has the momentum now and is poised to make the most of it. They have the depth to use that momentum to maximum effect. No team is perfect and certainly Red Bull's weaknesses are front and center for all to see. This time around it was tranny problems that cost Red Bull.

Looking forward we have some really prime races for Red Bull but we also have continuing problems with the strength and depth of the team. Do they really think they have so much speed in pocket as to favor Vettel, behind in points, to Webber? IMO, It's a gamble that they shouldn't be taking if they truly want to win the WC.

[mr moda]

As much as I would like to believe that I do not for one second think that Webber was being told to hold station. He was way too far behind to challenge Vettel and by his own admission saved the engine for Turkey.

[BreezyRacer]

Sorry, I should probably included this link to a graph of lap times from F1Fanatic ..
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/charts/201008rl56.html

Look at the last section of the race and determine for yourself .. the cars finished about 2 seconds apart.

[Chaparral]

Breezy yes you may be right with RBR pushing the Vettel barrow as they say but Mark wasnt in a position to challenge having watched a replay of the race theres a long way to go yet this season so we wait and see

[PNSD]

Breezy, I agree but with a different moment ...

I question why they didnt bring Webber in a little earlier for his final stop, then I realized it was likley he would come out not too far behind an ailing Vettel and challenge and pass.

Vettels car problems would have been imo more urgent than Webbers rear graining. Webber should have made the call himself and come in change rubber, put some quick laps and challenge Vettel and worry about the possible graining later on. With a gearbox issue would Vettel really wanted to try and pass Webber still?

RBR proving they have the car to do the job, but the team lacks majorly against Ferrari and Mclaren still. They have yet to prove imo they are a WC team.

[WhiteBlue]

Nice conspiracy theory! I couldn't have come up with a better one. Did you consider that Vettel was nursing a broken gear box? Consider for a moment what would have happened if RBR had given the drivers free hand to race. Vettel would have pushed that wreck and Red Bull would be out of another 10 points. That was sensible team order at work.



The dumb thing they did in that race was keeping Webber for 14 laps in his first stint on the used primes. He lost 1.7 s to the Maccas per lap over seven laps. Figure him coming out 12 s higher up for his second stint and you would have had an entirely different race for him.

[BreezyRacer]

Conspiracy theory? It's just looking at what's happened and reflecting on the way various teams have lost the fire for a championship run midway thru the season. Red Bull's team weaknesses are showing, IMO. That's really what's in question here.

[RH1300S]

Nice conspiracy theory! I couldn't have come up with a better one. Did you consider that Vettel was nursing a broken gear box? Consider for a moment what would have happened if RBR had given the drivers free hand to race. Vettel would have pushed that wreck and Red Bull would be out of another 10 points. That was sensible team order at work.

Of course, you might argue that it would be equally sensible to let Webber past Moreso given that he was/is ahead in the WDC

The question was 'Has Red Bull pissed away the WC?'

Obviously they are doing their best to piss it away given the number of times they haven't made it to the finish. If they don't clean up in the next few races - 'Yes they have pissed it away - mainly through car issues'

[ISLAMATRON]

Are we even half way through the season? I wasnt aware that they ever had it "in hand" to piss it away

Any team favoring 1 driver over the other at this point of the season deserves to lose

[WhiteBlue]

Conspiracy theory? It's just looking at what's happened and reflecting on the way various teams have lost the fire for a championship run midway thru the season. Red Bull's team weaknesses are showing, IMO. That's really what's in question here.

Your initial post was dealing with team order and the conspiracy theory that the team was promoting Vettel over Webber.

It's clear from Red Bull's actions that they are indeed promoting baby Schumi over Webber, as witnessed in Canada when they kept Webber behind Vettel to the end despite the tremendous speed differential between the two cars at the end. While all of this does tend to raise Webber's stature with F1 insiders it also seems to indicate that the only way Red Bull will win the WC is if it's Vettel leading the team to it. ... Do they really think they have so much speed in pocket as to favor Vettel, behind in points, to Webber? IMO, It's a gamble that they shouldn't be taking if they truly want to win the WC.

I was saying that the sensible thing in this case would be keeping Vettel's 10 or 12 points and not risking them by an unnecessary racing between the drivers. Of course the team could have favored Webber and ordered Vettel back, but that would have been open favorism and not fair racing. Webber had no chance to catch anybody but his team mate.

If your post was by chance dealing with the dismal reliability of the Red Bull team you could have posted in the thread "Where did Red Bull go wrong in the reliability". You didn't and so the whole thing looks like an non issue to me.

I agree with Islamatron that it is difficult to piss something away that you don't have. To get it Red Bull must foremost find performance, reliability and make sound team order decisions. Canada was a step in the right direction from Turkey.

[Pup]

They've most definitely pissed it away, or at least they pissed away their early-season dominance. Whether they can shape up and fight out the remainder of the season has yet to be seen, tough I wouldn't count on it. They did a decent job of pressuring Brawn last year through the stretch, fwiw.

They started this year with every bit of the dominance that Brawn showed last season, but just look at the difference. At this point, Brawn had 6 wins and 3 1-2 finishes; RBR have 3, and 1. McLaren, on the other hand, have managed 4 wins and 3 1-2 finishes, despite having started off the season with a car that was a clear 1+ seconds slower than the Red Bull. And they've managed that despite losing potential points through strategic errors (Malaysia), getting punted off (Australia), mechanical failures (Spain), and pure stupidity (Monaco).

OK, so the points are all about even, so you can't count them out - but with a car as dominant as they've had, coming out of the first 8 races in second place is quite simply pathetic. Again, just look at Brawn last year. Had they been in second place at this point in the season, they'd never have had a chance of winning any titles.

Personally, with Ferrari due for a major update in Valencia, and McLaren following with the same at Silverstone, I don't give Red Bull a chance. The title fight now is between Hamilton and Alonso.

[BreezyRacer]

I'm not implying conspiracy or such. I'm simply pointing out that Webber could have easily passed Vettel in the last 7 laps of the race but for team "policy". That's the only way to see it IMO. His laps were slower than when they were running full fuel! So at a time when most drivers post their fast laps he was suddenly 2-4 seconds slower a lap than his previous pace. Yes Vettel had gearbox problems, nursing the car home, so he was slow. I'm not blaming Vettel, but I am saying that Webber definitely chose to follow rather than pass for the closing stint of the race. Just one attempt at a fast lap would have been all it took to pass Vettel. Hence you cannot delude yourself that there isn't a team "policy" at work.

So they took the team's significant points leader and minimized his points take at the expense of Vettel. Teams that win championships rarely have the luxury to do this kind of thing. Thus will we look back to see that Red Bull's "policies" have lost them the championship. All cars break, it's racing and everything is at the limit so you have to expect that this kind of thing can happen. The thing you don't expect to happen is the team sacrificing it's points leader for it's other driver. IMO, not a way to win the WC.

[ecapox]

Are you guys serious? Every week it is a new "Is XXXXXX done?" or "Is xxxxxx full of mistakes?" or "Is XXXXXXXXX losing it?"

Seriously guys, we have had 7 races out of 18. Not even half way finished. Has RedBull gotten all the points that they should have, No. Neither has anyone else. That's why these topics are ---.

[Pup]

Well, in F1 you've got to make hay while the sun shines. RB had a chance to open up an insurmountable lead while the others struggled to catch up, but they blew it. Worth a discussion, in my book.

[myurr]

Conspiracy theory? It's just looking at what's happened and reflecting on the way various teams have lost the fire for a championship run midway thru the season. Red Bull's team weaknesses are showing, IMO. That's really what's in question here.

Your initial post was dealing with team order and the conspiracy theory that the team was promoting Vettel over Webber.

It's clear from Red Bull's actions that they are indeed promoting baby Schumi over Webber, as witnessed in Canada when they kept Webber behind Vettel to the end despite the tremendous speed differential between the two cars at the end. While all of this does tend to raise Webber's stature with F1 insiders it also seems to indicate that the only way Red Bull will win the WC is if it's Vettel leading the team to it. ... Do they really think they have so much speed in pocket as to favor Vettel, behind in points, to Webber? IMO, It's a gamble that they shouldn't be taking if they truly want to win the WC.

I was saying that the sensible thing in this case would be keeping Vettel's 10 or 12 points and not risking them by an unnecessary racing between the drivers. Of course the team could have favored Webber and ordered Vettel back, but that would have been open favorism and not fair racing. Webber had no chance to catch anybody but his team mate.

Sorry but that's the weirdest line of thinking I've ever seen! In Turkey you were arguing that it was right that Red Bull let the 'demonstrably faster' Vettel past Webber by using team orders. In this race you feel that the team were right to call off the racing between the drivers, and then claim that not doing so would not have been fair racing!?

So which is it - the faster driver should be allowed to pass, or the faster driver should hold back? Let's not forget that Webber was demonstrably the faster driver all weekend and qualified ahead of Vettel. After all the latter was only ahead on track due to Webber having reliability issues after qualifying.

Frankly the switching between the two positions demonstrates to me that both you and the team favour Vettel regardless of circumstances, and that is not something I can respect.

Back to the topic at hand, I feel Red Bull are letting the championship slip through their fingers. They started the season with a large car advantage, but have spectacularly failed to take advantage for a whole host of reasons - from numpty moments from both drivers, through reliability issues to operational cock-ups. The championship was never going to be the done deal that some reckoned, but it was clearly Red Bulls best chance to date.

The latest James Allen post sheds a little more light on this showing how things are getting fraught in the Red Bull camp.