3rd spring

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
User avatar
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:18 pm
Location: Cairo Egypt

3rd spring

Post by hardhgear » Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:04 pm

Hello every body,
When i played F1 challeng and i go through setup i found 3rd spring and damper.Is that really exist and if yes what is the use of it while there is others on the right and left
:oops: #-o ](*,)
One of the most important benefit of
CAE Software is that we're approaching
The area of zero prototype Engineering

User avatar
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 10:36 pm
Location: Covilhã, Portugal (and sometimes in Évora)

Post by Monstrobolaxa » Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:28 pm

Yes the third spring and damper really exist....some teams do use it....to give you a general idea the right hand springs control the right hand of the car....the left dsamper....the left side...the third damper usually is connected to the other 2 and controls the suspension in general....Scarbs (if IU'm not mistaken) has a picture with the 3 dampers in his website....if someone could post it...


Post by red300z99x » Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:23 pm

the 3rd spring is usually used by cars with large aerodynamic forces and need better control of pitch and ride

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:54 am

Post by manchild » Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:18 pm

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:47 am
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Post by scarbs » Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:40 pm

The third spring is indeed real. teams use them on the front and rear suspension. In fact the third "spring" is not necessarily a spring at all, Some teams imply use dampers or bump rubbers. It comes into effect when the car is pitching, that is both sides of the suspension are compressing. The pitching is caused by one of two effect, firstly weight shift from braking or secondly when the aerodynamic downforce presses the car against the track. the third bumper often has some free play so it only works when the suspension reaches a certain amount of pitch, then it controls the remaining amount of movement in the suspension, this keeps the car form bouncing or bottoming both of which will upset the cars aerodynamic balance.

Here you can see a rear end where the third damper\spring is mounted between (and compressed by) the rockers
http://scarbsf1.com/mac_detail/T_MAC_MP ... CT0024.JPG

And at the front the set up is similar but McLaren pull the spring, other teams mount the spring above the rockers to make it work in compression

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 4:34 pm

Post by Lukin » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:20 am

It can also be used on smaller formula cars, though I'm not sure whether the added complexity of setup, paired with the added weight and cost is worthy of the gain.

The UWA SAE team used a third spring/damper arrangement this year. Basically the thing was stiff as a rock in pitch and roll, allowing them to run much softer in vertical stiffness, aiding traction.

Apparently with the UWA car you could push any wheel down without any trouble, but pushing sideways on the rollbar would get you nowhere.

User avatar
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:04 pm
Location: Moscow

Post by schumiGO » Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:15 pm

LOL!!!! realy possible :lol: :lol: :lol: drive in F1 challenge in 2004 rh without 3d spring :shock: :shock: :shock: cuse in some inet servers all people used DEFAULF menu for game so there no Braking adjustment and 3ds elemens .....
But it not putt lap time down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I play in it to ) so we can drive together))


Post by Guest » Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:54 pm

So in McLaren the 3rd spring seems to work under constant stress and instead of contracting it expands

Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 2:25 am

Post by M's » Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:10 pm

the UWA set-up was a Kenetic design. Used on the citreon rally car as well. Uses a system of accumulators. It's a little different than what is going on in the F1 cars. not sure how the f1 system works just yet. At least i can't explain it to everyone...

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 4:34 pm

Post by Lukin » Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:15 am


The kinetic system hydruallically links all four wheels.

The F1 cars on link the fronts to each other and the rears to each other. The third spring acts as an anti-pitch bar for want of another word.

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:36 pm

Post by jgm » Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:24 pm

Would it be correct to say that third springs do the job of a sort of longitudinal anti-roll bar?

Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:02 am

Post by DaveKillens » Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:12 pm

A car suspension can be a complex animal, especially in how all the forces and parts interact. For example, increase the right rear spring pressure, and the left front's characteristics drastically change. In car setup, it's desirable to be able to separate the interaction betwen the components, to make setup changes less complex. With the third spring, the engineers are able to almost completely separate the ride height and pitch characteristics from other suspension forces.
Obviously, you should be able to do this with just a spring and damper on each wheel. Mechanically, it's simpler, probably cheaper, and most likely lighter. But if you can't make the setup work, if you have trouble getting the suspension to act properly, it's a good thing to be able to simplify and separate the interaction.


Post by Guest » Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:35 pm


I'm from UWA Motorsport. The Kinetic system combined with third springs allows us to get an 30% increase in roll stiffness while running really soft springs for bump. Basically the car doesn't roll, but unlike normal cars that are stiff in roll, it it still soft in bump. This means a rough strack won't upset the car. The third springs are quite stiff so we get better stiffness in heave as well. The technical version is that the Kinetic system allows us to de-couple the cars dynamic modes which allows them to easily tuned.


Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:18 am

Post by riff_raff » Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:49 am

Anonymous is correct. "Third spring" suspensions allow independent tuning of pitch and roll stiffness. This is important for cars that rely heavily on aero downforce and grip, as opposed to cars that rely mainly on mechanical grip.

User avatar
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:48 pm
Location: Germany

Post by mep » Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:22 am

When you have the right and left spring for
bump and roll and the third for pitch
so why do you need also a torsion bar for roll?

The two outher springs should do the same job -controlling roll in corners?