Visibility in F1 cars

[WhiteBlue]

In the last view days there have been multiple proposals to improve visibility in order to avoid accidents.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95267

Whitmarsh has talked about the mirrors and how they need improving. Another issue is the forward visibility for the driver when the seating position is aerodynamically optimized. Many drivers sit so deep in their cars that they cannot see items on the road between a point 5 m away from their nose cone and even farer away.

There is some talk to introduce an FiA standard test where the driver must be able to see all items in a certain distance from the front. I'm not sure what will be specified but I'm all for it. We have seen an aweful lot of accidents in 2010 and 2011 where forward visibility played a big role. It is time to do something about both problems and it will not be a performance differenciator but a safety enhancement.

What do you think?

[Giblet]

Myself, I was unaware of the current mirrors being a problem until it was brought up last race. They were considered a issue when they went outboard, and they were moved back in for safety grounds.

Its not as if they spent a lot of time making sure he could see properly:



So with placement being such a high priority, sufficient mounting should also be.

As for driving position, I have stated in the past that I think a mandated higher driving position is prudent in addition to bringing in the front wing away from the wheels. A mandated eye level, and if a driver is shorter or taller, so be it. it would also balance out the height of the drivers. Nobody gets a weight advantage due to ballast, so why get a height advantage if you are short?

Drivers of just 20 years ago saw what I would say to about twice as much, and they were able to race closer without snapping off vital aero appendages.

They don't need to sit upright like they used to, but they should be able to see.

[Webber2011]

The drivers definitely sit lower than than they did years ago, most likely for aero as stated, so for sure the frontal visibility must be worse.
I think there's a bit of an illusion compared to older cars though because of the high cockpit surrounds introduced for safety.
It makes the driver look lower in the car than yesteryear.
I don't think drivers in the past could really see their front wing either, but if it's at the stage that distances like 5 metres are becoming invisible it's a bit of a concern.

Mirrors have never worked very well in F1.
Some of the old footage of I have of Senna and co, while not top quality, shows that the mirrors were vibrating so badly they couldn't see much at all really.

These days the mirrors seem to have little functional value due to the aero demands.

I'm not sure how to fix it, but surely there's a way to test how well they work under different conditions and have some sort of regulation imposed ?

[timbo]

I'm not sure how to fix it, but surely there's a way to test how well they work under different conditions and have some sort of regulation imposed ?

Enforce a standard rigid mounting.

[beelsebob]

I'm not sure how to fix it, but surely there's a way to test how well they work under different conditions and have some sort of regulation imposed ?

Enforce a standard rigid mounting.

I'm not sure being rigid is the issue... instead, no matter how tightly the driver is strapped into the car, the relationship between driver head and mirror *is* going to jiggle around down even the smoothest straight.

[timbo]

I'm not sure being rigid is the issue... instead, no matter how tightly the driver is strapped into the car, the relationship between driver head and mirror *is* going to jiggle around down even the smoothest straight.

You know, you are probably correct. My comment was brought by me remembering some onboards I watched. Like this for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES3uRsBiDOk
But when I watch onboards from this season, I can say that situation is much better. I hate to bring this, but it seems that MWs comment is mostly covering his driver's a**.

Probably mirrors are as good as it gets. Further improvents can probably be made by gizmos as rear-view cam with a screen on the visor.
Now, forward visibility can be indeed improved. And the testing for that is rather straighforward -- put a driver in a seat, place a screen 3 meters (or whatever distance you deem right) in front on the ground level and check if he reads it.

[Mandrake]

The downside of putting the drivers higher is that their heads are much more exposed. In case of a an accident where one car drives onto the other, the danger of head injuries will increase. So, at the same time the side protection has to rise as well that the side is protected, but forward visibilty of ~150° is maintained.

[Giblet]

If there is better visibility, there will be less contact, less punctures, less crashes, and less safety cars, yellow flags, and marshals on the track.

In short fewer situations should arise. Massa would still have been hit in the face, and Henry Surtees, tragically, would still no be with us.

The scariest crash was Liuzzi on Schumacher last year, but if MS was higher up, so would have been the side head protection, and the exact same thing would likely have happened due to increased side protection as the head moves up. The safety aspect in my opinion would be splitting hairs in this case.

Racing is dangerous of course, and getting out major dangers is an issue when they appear, but the tiny difference in height needed to make a large difference in forward visibility

[lebesset]

I often feel that drivers of average height or more are disadvantaged in modern F1 cars due to the inability to sit low in the car
minimum forward visibility would level the playing field if correctly legislated

limiting front wings to not project in front of the tyres would be a good thing imho , improve the racing

[Traction]

I know this might not be totally on subject but what is the new black strip on the helmets just above the pull of visor strips? I saw it highlighted on one of the drivers helmets at the Japanese GP but missed the details.

I think it had to do with re-inforcements but I am not sure.

[timbo]

I think it had to do with re-inforcements but I am not sure.

Yes, it is new visor reinforcement — a Zylon strip covered with carbonfibre.
It was in use on one brand of helmets since the start of the year and became obligatory on all since Japanese GP.

[Just_a_fan]

Perhaps a rear view image should be projected on to the inside of the visor. That way the mirrors and their relationship with the drivers' eyes are irrelevant.

The technology exists and F1 has a great habit of making existing technology work in its limited field.

Alternatively, a blind spot warning system as used by some road cars. If there's a car within a certain distance to the side of the car then the driver gets warned by an appropriate light. These lights could very easily be mounted in the helmet.

[vall]

Perhaps a rear view image should be projected on to the inside of the visor. That way the mirrors and their relationship with the drivers' eyes are irrelevant.

The technology exists and F1 has a great habit of making existing technology work in its limited field.

Alternatively, a blind spot warning system as used by some road cars. If there's a car within a certain distance to the side of the car then the driver gets warned by an appropriate light. These lights could very easily be mounted in the helmet.

A thought about that a month ago or so. Put a reverse-view camera and project the picture on the visor. As you say the technology is there. But they also need real mirrors and case electronics fails.

[Just_a_fan]

But they also need real mirrors and case electronics fails.

True enough. The current mirrors could be improved even if not made "ideal"...

[izybluffen]

It wont hurt to improve the mirrors but this whole topic has come about because of Seb and Hammi.

Seb damn well seen Button in the mirror and was watching him the whole time if you look at the start from Seb's incar. He then proceeded with his signature move to push Button off the track.

Hammi just plain wasn't looking in his mirrors just like SPA with Koby.
Whats the point of upgrading them just for Hammi if he doesn't use them.

To me Seb clearly lied about not seeing Button, and Hammi didn't see Massa cause he wasn't looking for him.

Compare this to Schumi in Italy with Hammi. MS can use these mirrors quite well and with the so called vibration on the fastest track on the calendar. Schumi was using his mirrors the whole time and knew exactly where his opponent was.

A fairly big difference in my opinion between the 3 mentioned drivers, but like I said, it wont hurt to still improve the mirrors.