Sir Jackie Stewart on overtaking

[lebesset]

some of you may be aware that BBC radio has a programme called Radio5 Live
amongst other things they do an excellent live broadcast on each F1 practise session , and this is used as the commentary to the BBC TV satellite broadcast of these sessions

normally , as well as an excellent commentator , they have an ex F1 driver to comment , anthony davison at this time , but as he is racing this weekend they roped in jackie ; personally I agree with some of what jackie says , but far from all ...apart from anything else you must admit that he has been there , done it , and SURVIVED IT , in itself a feat for his generation

not surprisingly the subject of massa/hamilton came up , and there was a lengthy discussion on the matter ; the first thing he said was ...no overtaking , no F1 , with which I find no argument ; however he then went on to say that the great drivers had relatively few accidents and he didn't put drivers like senna and schumacher in the top rank for that reason , but jim clark and alain prost were ....he added that he thought vettel the best all round driver for his age that he had ever seen


he said that some drivers were difficult to overtake because they were unpredictable in their responses ; when asked for examples he said that drivers like jack brabham and jo bonnier were like that ; so you didn't put yourself in the position where they could collide with you and opined that hamilton didn't do that hence the latest massa collision

here is where I disagree ; I am sick of hearing about the racing line ...for me the racing line is the fastest way around the track ...if use of that line is not in dispute

I believe that the conventions of overtaking need to be revised ...no good complaining about inconsistent decisions from the stewards if there are no clear guidelines for them to follow

so what should those guidelines be ? I believe the following

clearly overtaking can take place on the straight or in the corners , and guidelines are needed for both

ON THE STRAIGHT

if a driver is attempting to overtake you he must be allowed a cars width even if he doesn't have an overlap ...if he has a run on you , no blocking or intimidation : is what schumacher did to reubens last year , or vettel did to button this year acceptable ? not to me it is not ...making a move doesn't extend to running your opponent off the track

ON A CORNER

different rules needed for inside and outside overtakes

inside ;if the overtaking driver is able to get his front axle ahead of your rear axle with all his wheels on the track you must give him a car's width ; you don't wish to do that , going off line ? then you should have driven defensively to stop him getting there , and accept the slowing effect ; that may give him a chance around the outside but hard luck , he is clearly quicker than you

outside ; if a driver tries to overtake you on the outside you are entitled to take your normal line without going extra wide on the exit ..up to the overtaker to avoid the accident

Monaco this years provides a few examples

schumacher dives down the inside of hamilton at the hairpin ...hamilton gives him room , no accident
hamilton dives down the inside of massa at the same corner ...massa won't give him room ...collision

hamilton dives down the inside of schumacher at st devote ...schumacher gives him room ...no accident

hamilton dives down the inside of maldonado at st devote , ...maldonado won't give him room ...collision

if you feel this thread worthy of comment , please no fanboyism, it isn't pointed at any particular team or driver and if hamilton and massa keep coming up then they would this year , wouldn't they !

the point for me is that I have had enough of this hamilton/massa type business , great for the gutter press , but I want to see these guys RACING ; I understand where jackie is coming from , some of the things we have seen the last couple of years would have resulted in people getting killed in his times , and you can hardly expect him to forget that , especially in the light of events in recent weeks

[beelsebob]

I pretty much agree with your observations entirely, except for one thing – the limit for when it becomes the defender's responsibility when being overtaken up the inside.

Personally, I'd say that it's the defender's responsibility to give room exactly when they can see the attacker in their peripheral vision before they turn in. This is why I believe that HAM/MAS at india was MAS's fault, why HAM/MAL at monaco was MAL's fault - they both turned in early because they saw HAM in their peripheral vision. It is also why I believe HAM/MAS at monaco was HAM's fault – because HAM was no where near along side the cockpit with any part of his car – it was just a lunge into a non-existant gap.

[strad]

This isn't Sir Jackie on overtaking,,,It's lebesset on overtaking.

[beelsebob]

This isn't Sir Jackie on overtaking,,,It's lebesset on overtaking.

I see no reason why lebesset should not be allowed to commentate on Sir Jackie's comments, just like he's asking us all to do.

[strad]

Ok but let's seperate wheat from chaff..
.
JS

...no overtaking , no F1

great drivers had relatively few accidents and he didn't put drivers like senna and schumacher in the top rank for that reason , but jim clark and alain prost were ....he added that he thought vettel the best all round driver for his age that he had ever seen

some drivers were difficult to overtake because they were unpredictable in their responses ; when asked for examples he said that drivers like jack brabham and jo bonnier were like that ; so you didn't put yourself in the position where they could collide with you and opined that hamilton didn't do that hence the latest massa collision

Although he says otherwise I think it's just an invitation for more of what you guys call fanboy comments

[CMSMJ1]

The comments by JYS were not quite as you portray mate.

He was more making a point of drivers not getting into accidents, rather than the ones that do - In my opinion.

The points he made about racetracks and golf courses was a better one for me..

[strad]

If you are talking to me...I just seperated out what lebesset quoted.

[Shrieker]

I'll go further and suggest equiping the cars with proximity sensors. If another driver's front axle gets passed your rear axle, a beep sounds meaning, "If you go that way there'll be a collision". Got it in iracing, so in concept it works. Might need some honing but that's it really. Even road cars have proximity sensors for parkig etc.Cheap technology, easy solution. Plus the FIA can see if the beep sounded or not by looking at the data, making it easier to judge dodgy situations.

[mx_tifoso]

Do you want turn signals on these race cars as well while you're at it?

[Shrieker]

Would you rather see crashes instead of good racing ? There are situations where the mirrors are simply useless. An arrangement similar to this would also prevent dirty racing and encourage fair racing. I've seen many times where a driver has intentionally pushed a fellow racer out of road this year alone(shall i count them?). You hear the beep, inside,outside, straight doesn't matter; you HAVE TO leave slightly more than a car's width. You don't, you get reprimanded or penalised. Simple as that.

From the top of my mind,

Hamilton pushes Webber out of road (Nurburgring)
Hamilton pushes Massa out of road (Suzuka)
Hamilton tries to push Kobayashi out of road (Spa - ends up in the wall himself)

(I wrote the 'Hamilton ones' first since I'm known to be a fan of his here, and I hate being accused with bias)

Schumacher pushes Hamilton out of road (Canada)

etc...

All intentional. All dirty; to gain a little advantage here and there. Since there's no sanction for this type of behaviour, all drivers deem such moves legitimate and execute them whenever they can. This area in F1 needs some attention. In iracing the spotter works near perfect. I don't see why it wouldn't work in F1. The warning doesn't mean you have to give way though, it shouldn't be interpreted in that context. It only means you have to make room, and not drive another car off the road, that's all.

[lebesset]

The comments by JYS were not quite as you portray mate.

He was more making a point of drivers not getting into accidents, rather than the ones that do - In my opinion.

The points he made about racetracks and golf courses was a better one for me..

during the course of an hour and a half he talked about various things ; however his comments re the problems of overtaking seemed to me to address a current problem

you COULD summarise what he said as

overtaking is central to F1

don't take risks to overtake

and to me the two statements seem to me to be mutually exclusive ...if nobody takes a risk there won't be much overtaking

personally I took his no risks statement to mean there are drivers you can trust to behave correctly and there are drivers you can't trust ...but he didn't say that and I didn't suggest that he did , it was just my interpretation

SHRIEKER like the idea of a proximity beeper , the drivers have warning devices for just about everything else , why not that ; alternatively why not double or panoramic mirrors , they are on just about all commercial vehicles [ and my motorhome ]to cover the blind spots , hardy rocket science

and MX ..isn't the turn signal comment uncalled for following shriekers serious suggestion ?

[CMSMJ1]

If you are talking to me...I just seperated out what lebesset quoted.

Aye, not you mate.

JYS is from a different world of racing anyways and though I respect his opinion, everyone has an opinion and some of them I agree with.

[Pierce89]

Would you rather see crashes instead of good racing ? There are situations where the mirrors are simply useless. An arrangement similar to this would also prevent dirty racing and encourage fair racing. I've seen many times where a driver has intentionally pushed a fellow racer out of road this year alone(shall i count them?). You hear the beep, inside,outside, straight doesn't matter; you HAVE TO leave slightly more than a car's width. You don't, you get reprimanded or penalised. Simple as that.

From the top of my mind,

Hamilton pushes Webber out of road (Nurburgring)
Hamilton pushes Massa out of road (Suzuka)
Hamilton tries to push Kobayashi out of road (Spa - ends up in the wall himself)

(I wrote the 'Hamilton ones' first since I'm known to be a fan of his here, and I hate being accused with bias)

Schumacher pushes Hamilton out of road (Canada)

etc...

All intentional. All dirty; to gain a little advantage here and there. Since there's no sanction for this type of behaviour, all drivers deem such moves legitimate and execute them whenever they can. This area in F1 needs some attention. In iracing the spotter works near perfect. I don't see why it wouldn't work in F1. The warning doesn't mean you have to give way though, it shouldn't be interpreted in that context. It only means you have to make room, and not drive another car off the road, that's all.

+1 I agree all around and I thought the beeper could be useful.

[strad]

[lebesset]

http://en.espnf1.com/abudhabi/motorspor ... 64133.html

as previously stated my view is that if the driver ahead is not clear of the following driver he is not entitled to force him off the track or to back off to avoid a collision

will be interesting to see what happens