Less torque to reduce tyre wear?

[thearmofbarlow]

Wait, I don't get this...

5.5.3 The maximum accelerator pedal travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or greater than the maximum engine torque at the measured engine speed.
The minimum accelerator pedal travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or lower than 0Nm.

I was always under the impression that every car was fitted with a dial that could control the amount of torque from the steering wheel. This is obviously new for this year, so is this some random reg I missed? If you're this paranoid about diffuser blowing then why not just mandate that exhaust gases must not contact any bodywork? Is this because it could be construed (and NOBODY construes to the ultimate like the FIA) as traction control?

[Shrieker]

So what happens now ? Less than an hour to go. This is confusing...

[Hail22]

So what happens now ? Less than an hour to go. This is confusing...

The Stewards (Mind you who clearly have no engineering background compared to the technical delegate) have decided no further action will take place. But since that report has been made there is no way Ferrari, Mclaren, Mercedes, Lotus will allow it to slide so easily.

[MrBlacky]

I also don't get it . Why should this be illegal if they are using less torque?

(Quoted is a rule that describes a maximum output)

[bhall]

5.5 Engine torque demand :

5.5.1 The only means by which the driver may control the engine torque is via a single chassis mounted foot (accelerator) pedal.

5.5.2 Designs which allow specific points along the accelerator pedal travel range to be identified by the driver or assist him to hold a position are not permitted.

5.5.3 The maximum accelerator pedal travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or greater than the maximum engine torque at the measured engine speed.

The minimum accelerator pedal travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or lower than 0Nm.

5.5.4 The accelerator pedal shaping map in the ECU may only be linked to the type of the tyres fitted to the car : one map for use with dry-weather tyres and one map for use with intermediate or wet-weather tyres.

5.5.5 At any given engine speed the driver torque demand map must be monotonically increasing for an increase in accelerator pedal position.

5.5.6 At any given accelerator pedal position and above 5,000rpm, the driver torque demand map must not have a gradient of less than – (minus) 0.030Nm / rpm.

5.6 Engine control :

5.6.1 The maximum delay allowed, computed from the respective signals as recorded by the ADR or ECU, between the accelerator pedal position input signal and the corresponding output demand being achieved is 50ms.

5.6.2 Teams may be required to demonstrate the accuracy of the engine configurations used by the ECU.

5.6.3 The maximum throttle target map in the ECU may only be used to avoid throttle target oscillations when the change of torque is small for a change of throttle position. It must not be used to artificially reduce the maximum engine torque.

The selection of the maximum throttle target map will be fixed during qualifying and race.

5.6.4 Engine control must not be influenced by clutch position, movement or operation.

5.6.5 The idle speed control target may not exceed 5,000rpm.

5.6.6 Except when anti-stall or idle speed control are active, ignition base offsets may only be applied above 80% throttle and 15,000rpm and for the sole purpose of reducing cylinder pressure for reliability.

5.6.7 A number of engine protections are available in the ECU.

A minimum of nine seconds hold time should be configured for the engine protections enabled during qualifying and race. The configuration of the air tray fire detection and throttle failsafe are exceptionally unrestricted in order to allow each team to achieve the best level of safety.

5.7 Engine high rev limits :

Engine high rev limits may vary for differing conditions provided all are significantly above the peak of the engine torque curve. However, a lower rev limit may be used when :

• The gearbox is in neutral.
• Stall prevention is active.
• The driver clutch request is greater than 95% of the total available travel of the driver clutch actuation device, used only to protect the engine following a driver error.
• An engine protection is active.
• The bite point finder strategy is active.
• The safety car is deployed or during the formation lap.

Except for the above conditions, ignition, fuelling and throttle may not be used to artificially control the engine speed or alter the engine response in a rev range more than 1,000rpm below the final rev limit.

Above are all pertinent engine control regulations. I think Red Bull is taking liberty with the following:

5.6.6 Except when anti-stall or idle speed control are active, ignition base offsets may only be applied above 80% throttle and 15,000rpm and for the sole purpose of reducing cylinder pressure for reliability.

If the car is geared the "right" way, that rule can be exploited.

[ankitshah]

I guess we must try to understand the engine control system. What is the commanded variable when the throttle pedal is pressed. Does the throttle valve position correspond one to one with the throttle pedal or is it the torque demand that is controlled by the pedal so that the throttle is adjusted to provide the commanded torque.

In this case what were the observations of the FIA? Was the RBR producing less torque than previously recorded at full throttle or were they producing the lower torques at midway throttle position? For former the car is clearly illegal as per the rules. In case of 2 they would be legal as long as the torque demand is strictly monotonic increasing.

We would need more info on the matter

[thearmofbarlow]

Above are all pertinent engine control regulations. I think Red Bull is taking liberty with the following:

5.6.6 Except when anti-stall or idle speed control are active, ignition base offsets may only be applied above 80% throttle and 15,000rpm and for the sole purpose of reducing cylinder pressure for reliability.

If the car is geared the "right" way, that rule can be exploited.

They specifically state it's 5.5.3 that was supposedly breached. In other words, Red Bull's engine was mapped in such a way that they weren't producing the maximum torque possible when the pedal was fully depressed.

[bhall]

Understood. But, any engine map variables can be attributed to the dispensation granted by 5.6.6.

[Hail22]

I think Red Bull may find themselves in the court of appeal...Mclaren a long with Ferrari, Mercedes and Lotus will make a scene to the FIA.

[thearmofbarlow]

Understood. But, any engine map variables can be attributed to the dispensation granted by 5.6.6.

Incorrect. The two are unrelated. The regulation isn't based on the maximum torque the engine is capable of producing, it's based on what the engine is currently producing.

More importantly, it could be the second part of the regulation that is (was?) under scrutiny.

[bhall]

I guess I haven't been very clear.

I know the two are unrelated. But, Red Bull can claim any breach of rule 5.5.3 is merely an unintended side-effect of the mapping variables allowed from 15,000-18,000 RPM and 80-100% throttle by rule 5.6.6. I think the gap between those two regulations is the source of contention.

[hardingfv32]

'5.6.6 Except when anti-stall or idle speed control are active, ignition base offsets may only be applied above 80% throttle and 15,000rpm and for the sole purpose of reducing cylinder pressure for reliability.'

Expand on this rule. When is it desirable for the teams to 'reducing cylinder pressure for reliability''? Is this some form of anti knock system?

Brian

[bhall]

I think it's just an avenue for teams to increase engine longevity. The regulations now require a lot more from engines than was the case when they were designed and homologated.

[ankitshah]

5.5 Engine torque demand :



5.5.3 The maximum accelerator pedal travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or greater than the maximum engine torque at the measured engine speed.

The minimum accelerator pedal travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or lower than 0Nm.

What is the maximum torque refered over here. Is it the max torque that the engine is capable of producing at that RPM? If so that is determined by the torque vs RPM curve generated in dyno testing. If RBR was in contravention of this rule its pretty clear cut as the engine data sheet will be available to FIA

[hardingfv32]

What is the maximum torque refered over here. Is it the max torque that the engine is capable of producing at that RPM? If so that is determined by the torque vs RPM curve generated in dyno testing. If RBR was in contravention of this rule its pretty clear cut as the engine data sheet will be available to FIA

The FIA is not going to control the max torque at a given RPM. That would be impossible to administer. Are you going to have the FIA telling the teams that they can do better with their engine performance and that they will be in breach if they do not make the FIA target torque number?

I would say that this is just the FIA official/steward trying to make something out of the mapping changes RB made and not applying the wrong interpretation of the rules.

Brian