Looking for Mid-50s Tire & Reg Info

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needmoretorque
needmoretorque
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Joined: 27 Dec 2012, 02:55

Looking for Mid-50s Tire & Reg Info

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Hey, I've started a blog/project called GP Evolved available at http://www.gpevolved.wordpress.com. Anyway, I am currently looking for two pieces of information and I would appreciate any help if anyone could point me in the right direction?
(1) Technical or anecdotal information on racing tires in the 1950s; and
(2) The complete set of FIA regulations for F1 in 1953 or 1954.

This is a super-obscure question, so thanks in advance for any help.
Check out my project at http://www.gpevolved.com. I am attempting to retell the story of F1, one race at a time. Stop by for a taste of Formula 1 in the 1950s.

needmoretorque
needmoretorque
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Joined: 27 Dec 2012, 02:55

Re: Looking for Mid-50s Tire & Reg Info

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Actually, if you know a ton about F1, or racing in general, in the 1950's, hit me up. I'd love to pick an experts brain with a few questions about what will be most interesting to focus on. So, just generally, seeking people who know more than I do about the 1950's. (I'm 29, so I don't have much perspective on anything that far back).

Feel free to PM me or email me at WRXspec@me.com

Thanks for any help,

nmt - (Travis)
Check out my project at http://www.gpevolved.com. I am attempting to retell the story of F1, one race at a time. Stop by for a taste of Formula 1 in the 1950s.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Looking for Mid-50s Tire & Reg Info

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53 F1 unchanged ? and irrelevant as 52 and 53 WDC were for F2 cars not F1
54-57 F1 free fuel and 500 km races
58-60 F1 petrol/Avgas and 300 km races had much less fuel load, this made rear engines superior
the 'British revolution' would have started years before if Coventry Climax hadn't dumped their 54 V8, frightened by .....
the Mercedes-Benz 196 (designed for 4wd)
and by the Alfa Romeo Tipo160 4wd (drawing is Googleable, photo is of 158 lashup proof-of-concept not 160)

I don't mind PM but posts are quicker
(further opinions available, despite semi-literacy computerwise due to age)

needmoretorque
needmoretorque
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Joined: 27 Dec 2012, 02:55

Re: Looking for Mid-50s Tire & Reg Info

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Yeah, I know that I'm probably getting some stuff wrong. I think you may have pointed one out. I will take a look at, what I believe you are referring to and edit accordingly.

But, thanks for the tip about Coventry!! That is the sort of tips I am looking for as, for my own benefit, I go through these races one by one.
Check out my project at http://www.gpevolved.com. I am attempting to retell the story of F1, one race at a time. Stop by for a taste of Formula 1 in the 1950s.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
650
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Looking for Mid-50s Tire & Reg Info

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danger, opinion stream !

the response to the first F1 shows that designers and their employers were gutless followers of fashion
eg BRM, Ferrari and Porsche/Cititalia, who designed from scratch a 1.5 litre supercharged engine rather than a 4.5 litre NA engine
the Norton motorcycle was winning thousands of races, getting 50 bhp from 1 cylinder on road fuel even pre WW2 (also others)
so a related NA 4.5 litre V8 would have been invincible
the Vanwall, only 10 years earlier
the (4.5 litre) Offenhauser engine could have won also (best to use petrol in F1, it even won Indy twice that way)

Mike Hawthorn got the Ferrari drive because he (and other British stars) used nitromethane in F2 (legal, but unknown in Italy)
later MH threw away his best years driving useless British F1 cars (55 and 56)

needmoretorque
needmoretorque
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Joined: 27 Dec 2012, 02:55

Re: Looking for Mid-50s Tire & Reg Info

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Great stuff. I'm at least partially tracking with what you're saying. I'm in the middle of going through 1953 right now. I just learned about Maserati's performance at the '53 French GP. What do you think about how strong Maserati came on in the 1953?

So, in this era (mid-50s), were there any significant technological developments, or was it all just about aesthetics? Sorry about my ignorance; but, I really am enthused about what I am discovering.
Check out my project at http://www.gpevolved.com. I am attempting to retell the story of F1, one race at a time. Stop by for a taste of Formula 1 in the 1950s.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
650
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Looking for Mid-50s Tire & Reg Info

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needmoretorque wrote:I just learned about Maserati's performance at the '53 French GP. What do you think about how strong Maserati came on in the 1953?
So, in this era (mid-50s), were there any significant technological developments, or was it all just about aesthetics? Sorry about my ignorance; but, I really am enthused about what I am discovering.
(much of the F2 period (WDC 52, 53) Maserati had a 'live axle' rear and Fangio injured)

M-B and Lancia had big ideas (history shows that many of these were mistakes), and big money to hold the best drivers

the M-B W196 was designed around enveloping bodywork/space frame, with intended 4wd capability (legal of course)
the low-drag body gave lift problems ? (unlike the D type Jaguar and a few others) and the body concept was abandoned
leaving an immutably oversize car
of 'old-style' construction (1 piece 'bulged' combustion chamber/cylinder with welded ports) the engine had (2 wide angle) oversized valves ?
as the earlier dominant Alfa Romeo 158/9 certainly did
(other makers used modern detachable cast heads and, following the 2 valve fashion, suffered valves relatively smaller than M-Bs)
it used nitrobenzene (like nitromethane) in the fuel (Italian teams never used either)
the nobly 'road relevant' suspension design also had no future
the W196s success was largely due to outstanding detail design and testing using resources equal to all its rivals combined

the Lancia D50 was designed for balanced handling, this was already widespread except for Maserati apparently favouring oversteer
tyres then had no belts, were narrow and of 100% aspect ratio, so distortion was large, giving 'slip' angles of even 12-18deg
(drifting meant 4-wheel drifting, not necessarily showing any opposite lock/countersteer)
Lancia showed the future of compact, low and light cars via the V8 engine (rather than an inline 4 or 6)
the engine was used as part of the structure
the later (F2, then F1) Ferrari Dino V6 was surely influenced by the Lancia ?
reducing drag by repositioning of the driver and transmission etc was often less than successful with inlines (eg Maserati)
strad's recent clip shows that 58 WDC Hawthorn used the old 'high drag' screen

overall the 54-57 period showed no 'blue sky' development of the cars, only practical development as above
disc brakes were only on British cars
driver adjustable handling was years away
fuel injection (eg the Bosch direct type) was not generally used
some tyres (eg Dunlop) used synthetic fibre construction, others still used natural fibre

Coventry-Climax had through a crisis of confidence thrown away a good new V8 in 54 (the Godiva)
Connaught had schemed a (monocoque ?) rear/mid engined car for it (C-C returned 5 years later with a 4 cylinder engine)

50s race engine design based on detachable heads should have used 4 (narrower angle) valves (or 3)
but the 2 valve fashion continued in Europe
BTW Ferrari made a 2.5 litre twin cylinder '4 valve' engine (118x114 mm 182 bhp) around 1954
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 14 Jan 2013, 19:47, edited 3 times in total.

zorog
zorog
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Joined: 15 May 2010, 21:01

Re: Looking for Mid-50s Tire & Reg Info

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As always the F1technical Database has some useful information on cars from the 50's and later, also a few of the videos I've downloaded from strad cover this era

Sombrero
Sombrero
126
Joined: 22 Feb 2012, 20:18

Re: Looking for Mid-50s Tire & Reg Info

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Thank you for this post. A lot a people underestimates the 50's.

In term of tire, the most difficult race in the world was the Carrera Panamericana. It was a world sportscar championship event in 1953 and 1954. European tire manufactureers had big problems there.

needmoretorque
needmoretorque
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Joined: 27 Dec 2012, 02:55

Re: Looking for Mid-50s Tire & Reg Info

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Awesome stuff Mr. Cookers (@Tommy Cookers). I appreciate the insight. I kept an eye on the thread throughout the day, but have not yet been able to parse through the vast amount of information you gave me. But, I will definitely be saving a copy of your comments, to use in my blog discussions. Anyway, thank you much for sharing, as this is exactly the sort of information I am hoping to learn, as I attempt to bring a new perspective--that of a fan only familiar with modern F1--to the early years of the Formula 1 Championship.

Also, I've noticed a lot of your discussion dealt with the advances of 1954 et. seq. That's great because I will be starting on the 1954 season in a few days to a week from now.

So, thanks for your comments so far, but please, don't let me stop you if you have more to add!
Check out my project at http://www.gpevolved.com. I am attempting to retell the story of F1, one race at a time. Stop by for a taste of Formula 1 in the 1950s.

needmoretorque
needmoretorque
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Joined: 27 Dec 2012, 02:55

Re: Looking for Mid-50s Tire & Reg Info

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So, as long as tires are coming up, how is F1 situated in the revolution from bias-ply to radial-ply. Was the technology already around; or not yet? How quickly did Formula 1 adopt (or did they?) the new technology?
Check out my project at http://www.gpevolved.com. I am attempting to retell the story of F1, one race at a time. Stop by for a taste of Formula 1 in the 1950s.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Looking for Mid-50s Tire & Reg Info

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I recall that there was only 1 radial ply tyre in the 50s
it was the Michelin X, a road tyre apparently so much better than anything else that it was used in rallying and even sometimes in saloon car racing
no race tyres were radial in the 50s
the main job of a race tyre was to stay in 1 piece (one season Ferrari 54? used Englebert tyres (for money), it was disastrous, also they had troubles in 51 with 16" Pirellis)
tyre reliability was hardly a problem by the 50s (unlike earlier)

F1 generally used Pirelli till 58
AFAIK race tyre plies were at a different angle to road tyre plies for stiffness and there was no belt
(so the tread profile was non-ideal, and thereby tolerant of non-ideal camber)
'The Racing Driver' by Dennis Jenkinson pub. around 1960 as a paperback by Batsford (possibly hardback earlier by another) has useful tyre data related to driving technique and handling

M-B dominance was in part surely because they always had 20 hp more than the others
(btw they invented variable length inlets on their race 'sports car' in 55)

the 50s started with ladder frames and rather limited suspension travel (related to the limitations of dampers)
the ladder frames then became more like spaceframes
by the end of the 50s suspension travel was much more and suspension geometry was correspondingly improved (eg Lotus/Chapman)
the Vanwall was redesigned in this way by Chapman around 56
it was very fast, having lower power losses between engine and road than others, Maserati then altered their cars
driver adjustment of anti-roll bar (Jack Brabham/Cooper ?) in-race appeared around 1960
by then even Ferrari had disc brakes
and tyres were advancing in construction and rubber compounding (Dunlop)
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 17 Jan 2013, 18:04, edited 2 times in total.

needmoretorque
needmoretorque
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Joined: 27 Dec 2012, 02:55

Re: Looking for Mid-50s Tire & Reg Info

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Wow. Again, great stuff. Thanks for the feedback. I'm at work but will take a closer look at your comments soon!
Check out my project at http://www.gpevolved.com. I am attempting to retell the story of F1, one race at a time. Stop by for a taste of Formula 1 in the 1950s.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
650
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Looking for Mid-50s Tire & Reg Info

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grandprixengines.co.uk is a wonderful (free) source of proper engineering analysis and information
including topics that have escaped the cogniscance of all others, since Posthumous anyway

also they have a book ? (going beyond any free stuff anywhere)
(I am cutting down on books, so haven't followed through on this)

needmoretorque
needmoretorque
0
Joined: 27 Dec 2012, 02:55

Re: Looking for Mid-50s Tire & Reg Info

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Tommy Cookers wrote:grandprixengines.co.uk is a wonderful (free) source of proper engineering analysis and information
including topics that have escaped the cogniscance of all others, since Posthumous anyway

also they have a book ? (going beyond any free stuff anywhere)
(I am cutting down on books, so haven't followed through on this)
(Not sure what exactly you mean by cutting down on books, but if you are divesting yourself of any F1 books, you should PM me!)

Thanks for the tip. I'll be checking it out and likely book marking it momentarily. As for resources, I was recently given The Complete Book of Formula One, Simon Arron and Mark Hughes, Motorbooks/MBI publishing (2008) and it is proving to be an invaluable resource for confirming or refuting what I am learning through the free resources.

But, I may have to check out the grandprixengines book as well.
Check out my project at http://www.gpevolved.com. I am attempting to retell the story of F1, one race at a time. Stop by for a taste of Formula 1 in the 1950s.