Mclaren Mercedes 2014

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MercedesAMGSpy
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Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

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Ah Sam Michael, the good old 2012 pit stops...unbelievable that he was part of McLaren.

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turbof1
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Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

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I have to disagree with you. Mercedes and Red Bull showed that 2013 should have been a evolution of the 2012 car. Both found 1 - 2 seconds improvement over the winter, by perfecting the Coanda-exhaust for example. To discontinue to develop the fastest car at he end of the seasons shows the incompetence of the McLaren management. A lot of important people in the F1 paddock were shocked by their "bold" decision. McLaren should have won the 2013 title, but because of stupid/weak/incompetent management they struggeld in 2013 and know again in 2014 because the wasted resources for 2014. Because they were building a totally new car for 2013 when, the biggest rule changes in F1 were about the start in 2014.
Mercedes and Red Bull had the correct philosophies already (infact Red Bull was the father of the philosophy, going back to 2009).
Mclaren on the other hand were a bit different. Stiff suspension, low noses and a front wing designed more for peak downforce production then airflow management. And that worked for them, until they hit the limits of it in 2012.

The MP4-28 was eventually quicker then the MP4-27, and Whitmarsh openly told that the MP4-27 hit the development limit. They COULDN'T significantly develop the MP4-27 further.

2013 was a failure in the making for several years already. They had to switch to the philosophy with the most potentional eventually and had to fail that year. And they still deal with the same issues today, but they are starting to get fully on top of it. Perhaps you could afterwards say that they didn't have the right people to make that jump, but I think Neal did what he could with the resources he had.
That is called incompetent management. A manager should "manage" or optimize the resources available and not waste them. The Mercedes W05 was started 3-4 years a go. McLaren have developed the 2012 car for 2013 and started with the 2014 a year earlier. Now they have wasted 2 years without winning a championship. Great management....of course its not only Neale but he decided to build a new car for 2013 and the snowball he created is still rolling.
A lot of what was learned in 2013 was passed over to the MP4-29. Especially concerning front wing design 2013 was a learning year.
Remember, they had to go from this:
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to this:
Image
which has evolved into this:
Image
#AeroFrodo

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MercedesAMGSpy
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Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

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turbof1 wrote:
I have to disagree with you. Mercedes and Red Bull showed that 2013 should have been a evolution of the 2012 car. Both found 1 - 2 seconds improvement over the winter, by perfecting the Coanda-exhaust for example. To discontinue to develop the fastest car at he end of the seasons shows the incompetence of the McLaren management. A lot of important people in the F1 paddock were shocked by their "bold" decision. McLaren should have won the 2013 title, but because of stupid/weak/incompetent management they struggeld in 2013 and know again in 2014 because the wasted resources for 2014. Because they were building a totally new car for 2013 when, the biggest rule changes in F1 were about the start in 2014.
Mercedes and Red Bull had the correct philosophies already (infact Red Bull was the father of the philosophy, going back to 2009).
Mclaren on the other hand were a bit different. Stiff suspension, low noses and a front wing designed more for peak downforce production then airflow management. And that worked for them, until they hit the limits of it in 2012.

The MP4-28 was eventually quicker then the MP4-27, and Whitmarsh openly told that the MP4-27 hit the development limit. They COULDN'T significantly develop the MP4-27 further.

2013 was a failure in the making for several years already. They had to switch to the philosophy with the most potentional eventually and had to fail that year. And they still deal with the same issues today, but they are starting to get fully on top of it. Perhaps you could afterwards say that they didn't have the right people to make that jump, but I think Neal did what he could with the resources he had.
True, I remember some articles in 2012 stating that McLaren didn't know how the develop the 2012 car further, end of a cyclus.

kooleracer
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Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

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turbof1 wrote:
I have to disagree with you. Mercedes and Red Bull showed that 2013 should have been a evolution of the 2012 car. Both found 1 - 2 seconds improvement over the winter, by perfecting the Coanda-exhaust for example. To discontinue to develop the fastest car at he end of the seasons shows the incompetence of the McLaren management. A lot of important people in the F1 paddock were shocked by their "bold" decision. McLaren should have won the 2013 title, but because of stupid/weak/incompetent management they struggeld in 2013 and know again in 2014 because the wasted resources for 2014. Because they were building a totally new car for 2013 when, the biggest rule changes in F1 were about the start in 2014.
Mercedes and Red Bull had the correct philosophies already (infact Red Bull was the father of the philosophy, going back to 2009).
Mclaren on the other hand were a bit different. Stiff suspension, low noses and a front wing designed more for peak downforce production then airflow management. And that worked for them, until they hit the limits of it in 2012.

The MP4-28 was eventually quicker then the MP4-27, and Whitmarsh openly told that the MP4-27 hit the development limit. They COULDN'T significantly develop the MP4-27 further.

2013 was a failure in the making for several years already. They had to switch to the philosophy with the most potentional eventually and had to fail that year. And they still deal with the same issues today, but they are starting to get fully on top of it. Perhaps you could afterwards say that they didn't have the right people to make that jump, but I think Neal did what he could with the resources he had.
The MP4-28 was eventually quicker then the MP4-27, and Whitmarsh openly told that the MP4-27 hit the development limit.
I call that a lack of creativity you have such a large group of engineers at McLaren and the Management is saying that their workforce can't come up with new designs to improve the MP4-27, I have never heard this in F1. The only thing I hear is that if we had more time in the windtunnel we can create a faster car. I have never heard in F1 that and engineer can't improve a car if he gets more time. Look at how intricate the updates are on the Red Bull the last 3 or 4 years. Every week they add a few bits and peaces and that's how you gain time. The MP4-28 could have been 1 sec faster like the Red Bull from 2013 was compared to the 2012 Red Bull. Red Bull also plateaued but during the season they found a way to improve the car. Because thats how F1 works you never can't stop improving the car. Only at McLaren they obviously think that's not the case and of course it backfired. Starting from zero development while your opponents started from 12 months of development because they carried over last years design and improved on it.

McLaren has got to change things otherwise, they will be the new Ferrari. Williams made changes hired Pat and axed Sam Micheal look at how that worked out for them. McLaren should do the same get rid of people that are constant making bad decisions and get a veteran that knows how the manage the great resources that are available at McLaren. Like I said get Bob Bell from Mercedes he is on his way out. Use his knowledge of management and technical know-how to your advantage. He also has worked with Alonso already and won 2 championships with Renault and now a third with Mercedes. Boullier or Berger in a Christian Horner role and Bob Bell as Chief Technical Officer.
Last edited by kooleracer on Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Irvine:"If you don't have a good car you can't win it, unless you are Michael or Senna. Lots of guys won in Adrian Newey's cars, big deal. Adrian is the real genius out there, there is Senna, there is Michael and there is Newey.They were the three great talents."

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FW17
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Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

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kooleracer wrote:
turbof1 wrote:
I have to disagree with you. Mercedes and Red Bull showed that 2013 should have been a evolution of the 2012 car. Both found 1 - 2 seconds improvement over the winter, by perfecting the Coanda-exhaust for example. To discontinue to develop the fastest car at he end of the seasons shows the incompetence of the McLaren management. A lot of important people in the F1 paddock were shocked by their "bold" decision. McLaren should have won the 2013 title, but because of stupid/weak/incompetent management they struggeld in 2013 and know again in 2014 because the wasted resources for 2014. Because they were building a totally new car for 2013 when, the biggest rule changes in F1 were about the start in 2014.
Mercedes and Red Bull had the correct philosophies already (infact Red Bull was the father of the philosophy, going back to 2009).
Mclaren on the other hand were a bit different. Stiff suspension, low noses and a front wing designed more for peak downforce production then airflow management. And that worked for them, until they hit the limits of it in 2012.

The MP4-28 was eventually quicker then the MP4-27, and Whitmarsh openly told that the MP4-27 hit the development limit. They COULDN'T significantly develop the MP4-27 further.

2013 was a failure in the making for several years already. They had to switch to the philosophy with the most potentional eventually and had to fail that year. And they still deal with the same issues today, but they are starting to get fully on top of it. Perhaps you could afterwards say that they didn't have the right people to make that jump, but I think Neal did what he could with the resources he had.
The MP4-28 was eventually quicker then the MP4-27, and Whitmarsh openly told that the MP4-27 hit the development limit.
I call that a lack of creativity you have such a large group of engineers at McLaren and the Management is saying that their workforce can't come up with new designs to improve the MP4-27, I have never heard this in F1. The only thing I hear is that if we had more time in the windtunnel we can create a faster car. I have never heard in F1 that and engineer can't improve a car if he gets more time. Look at how intricate the updates are on the Red Bull the last 3 or 4 years. Every week they add a few bits and peaces and that's how you gain time. The MP4-28 could have been 1 sec faster like the Red Bull from 2013 was compared to the 2012 Red Bull. Red Bull also plateaued but during the season they found a way to improve the car. Because thats how F1 works you never can't stop improving the car. Only at McLaren they obviously think that's not the case and of course it backfired. Starting from zero development while your opponents started from 12 months of development because they carried over last years design and improved on it.

McLaren has got to change things otherwise, they will be the new Ferrari. Williams made changes hired Pat and axed Sam Micheal look at how that worked out for them. McLaren should do the same get rid of people that are constant making bad decisions and get a veteran that knows how the manage the great resources that are available at McLaren.
On top of that they just had to develop the car for about 3 months into 2013 and then shift to he 2014. Mclaren shot themselves with that MP4-28

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turbof1
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Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

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I call that a lack of creativity you have such a large group of engineers at McLaren and the Management is saying that their workforce can't come up with new designs to improve the MP4-27, I have never heard this in F1. The only thing I hear is that if we had more time in the windtunnel we can create a faster car. I have never heard in F1 that and engineer can't improve a car if he gets more time. Look at how intricate the updates are on the Red Bull the last 3 or 4 years. Every week they add a few bits and peaces and that's how you gain time. The MP4-28 could have been 1 sec faster like the Red Bull from 2013 was compared to the 2012 Red Bull. Red Bull also plateaued but during the season they found a way to improve the car. Because thats how F1 works you never can't stop improving the car. Only at McLaren they obviously think that's not the case and of course it backfired. Starting from zero development while your opponents started from 12 months of development because they carried over last years design and improved on it.
Well, sorry but that's a little bit conflicting what you are saying. First you are saying they should have kept focussing on the mp4-27, so by definition limiting creativity, and when they switch philosophies to get more creativity, they aren't creative?

You'll get to hear this more and more often in F1; the current rules are so restricting already.

And again, Red Bull is the father of succesfull philosophy. They got it right ever since 2009. It was hence easier for them to build further on it. Mclaren was forced eventually to make that step and start from scratch. Mercedes did the same in 2011, that and the following year were horrible, but they learned from it how to get it right. Last year was great, this year they dominated. Only, they made the same move mclaren did 2 years earlier.
On top of that they just had to develop the car for about 3 months into 2013 and then shift to he 2014. Mclaren shot themselves with that MP4-28
3 months wouldn't have been nearly enough; Red Bull still was developing their car midseason.
#AeroFrodo

Harsha
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Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

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I think heard some one from Mclaren also said they were surprised by the Performance of the MP4-27 in the final 3 races as the Performance on track was much better than their Wind tunnel calculations. May be that was also the part of Going to another route in building MP4-28

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Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

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kooleracer wrote:
McLaren should have won the 2013 title, but because of stupid/weak/incompetent management they struggled in 2013 and now again in 2014 because they wasted resources for 2014.
And they could have won the 2012 WCC and WDC if they didn't make so much errors in pit stops

Thanks god Sam Michael is leaving. The declining of McLaren started when he arrive to the team

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Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

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turbof1 wrote:
I call that a lack of creativity you have such a large group of engineers at McLaren and the Management is saying that their workforce can't come up with new designs to improve the MP4-27, I have never heard this in F1. The only thing I hear is that if we had more time in the windtunnel we can create a faster car. I have never heard in F1 that and engineer can't improve a car if he gets more time. Look at how intricate the updates are on the Red Bull the last 3 or 4 years. Every week they add a few bits and peaces and that's how you gain time. The MP4-28 could have been 1 sec faster like the Red Bull from 2013 was compared to the 2012 Red Bull. Red Bull also plateaued but during the season they found a way to improve the car. Because thats how F1 works you never can't stop improving the car. Only at McLaren they obviously think that's not the case and of course it backfired. Starting from zero development while your opponents started from 12 months of development because they carried over last years design and improved on it.
Well, sorry but that's a little bit conflicting what you are saying. First you are saying they should have kept focussing on the mp4-27, so by definition limiting creativity, and when they switch philosophies to get more creativity, they aren't creative?

You'll get to hear this more and more often in F1; the current rules are so restricting already.

And again, Red Bull is the father of succesfull philosophy. They got it right ever since 2009. It was hence easier for them to build further on it. Mclaren was forced eventually to make that step and start from scratch.
On top of that they just had to develop the car for about 3 months into 2013 and then shift to he 2014. Mclaren shot themselves with that MP4-28
3 months wouldn't have been nearly enough; Red Bull still was developing their car midseason.
They should have kept the good parts of the MP4-27 and redesigned the weaker parts of the car. That's how most teams build their 2013 car. That is not limiting creativity that is called improving on proven a concept. Building a new cars shows a lack of creativity. Because you get blank peace of paper and you can try everything you want that's easier to do. To be creative is think off things that have been thought of yet. The lack of creativity pushed them to build a new car for 2013, if they were creative enough they would have found a way to improve on the 2012 car like almost every team did. I'm sure McLaren could have improved the effect of the Coanda-exhaust and their version of the FRIC system. That is what Mercedes did to improve their 2012 car. The MP4-27 wasn't a perfect car....
Irvine:"If you don't have a good car you can't win it, unless you are Michael or Senna. Lots of guys won in Adrian Newey's cars, big deal. Adrian is the real genius out there, there is Senna, there is Michael and there is Newey.They were the three great talents."

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turbof1
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Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

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They should have kept the good parts of the MP4-27 and redesigned the weaker parts of the car. That's how most teams build their 2013 car. That is not limiting creativity that is called improving on proven a concept. Building a new cars shows a lack of creativity. Because you get blank peace of paper and you can try everything you want that's easier to do. To be creative is think off things that have been thought of yet. The lack of creativity pushed them to build a new car for 2013, if they were creative enough they would have found a way to improve on the 2012 car like almost every team did.
That's what I've been trying to tell: there was not enough improvement anymore to be found! The whole concept bore that weakness, and the concept had to be changed.

Define what's good and right. There's little you or I can tell on that front. We only know that mclaren had issues with stalling the diffuser. Do you know what caused it? I personally don't.

Formula 1 nowadays doesn't really have "bad parts"; parts can interact poorly with eachother. Mclaren philosophy was to keep it rather simple on that front. In order to gain more performance they to develop more complexities. They failed at that and paid the price, but they also learn from it how to do it right.

Again, Mercedes took the same walk of pain. Only earlier. In my opinion Neal deserves his spot. He had the balls to make that call. The mp4-27 was considered a dead end. He had to do what paddy lowe and pat fry failed to do. If you want to blame him for doing the right call wrong, then I respect that, but the way I see it mclaren was never going to challenge for the 2013 title anyway. Either you had a mp4-27B that was predictably slow or a mp4-28 driving unpredictably.

Currently we see mclaren having a too narrow optimal operating window for their tyres. This sounds exactly like mercedes back in 2012. If mclaren gets that right next year and their engine is competitive, then the 2 years of learning will pay off.
#AeroFrodo

kooleracer
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Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

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turbof1 wrote:
They should have kept the good parts of the MP4-27 and redesigned the weaker parts of the car. That's how most teams build their 2013 car. That is not limiting creativity that is called improving on proven a concept. Building a new cars shows a lack of creativity. Because you get blank peace of paper and you can try everything you want that's easier to do. To be creative is think off things that have been thought of yet. The lack of creativity pushed them to build a new car for 2013, if they were creative enough they would have found a way to improve on the 2012 car like almost every team did.
That's what I've been trying to tell: there was not enough improvement anymore to be found! The whole concept bore that weakness, and the concept had to be changed.

Define what's good and right. There's little you or I can tell on that front. We only know that mclaren had issues with stalling the diffuser. Do you know what caused it? I personally don't.

Formula 1 nowadays doesn't really have "bad parts"; parts can interact poorly with eachother. Mclaren philosophy was to keep it rather simple on that front. In order to gain more performance they to develop more complexities. They failed at that and paid the price, but they also learn from it how to do it right.

Again, Mercedes took the same walk of pain. Only earlier.

Neale said at the launch of the car, that could have improved on the MP4-27 but the would have plateaued mid-season. That is not a problem at all if you have a massive project for 2014 taking most of the resources anyway. If the diffuser was stalling redisgn the diffuser, am sure that redesign the diffuser that would brought more changes to the car for that new diffuser the function. That's a good example of how McLaren should have approached 2013, if they would have plateaued during the second half that wouldn't be a problem because every team except Red Bull ditched the 2013 car after the summer break anyway. Red Bull didn't start very strong so McLaren could have had a shot at the title in 2013, with a plateaued MP4-28. Hindsight is beautiful thing, but building a new car for the 2013 was wrong knowing what was lying ahead for 2014.
Irvine:"If you don't have a good car you can't win it, unless you are Michael or Senna. Lots of guys won in Adrian Newey's cars, big deal. Adrian is the real genius out there, there is Senna, there is Michael and there is Newey.They were the three great talents."

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turbof1
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Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

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Neale said at the launch of the car, that could have improved on the MP4-27 but the would have plateaued mid-season.
That would have been a problem since:
A) it means your improvements will be smaller if we assume a S-curve for development. The closer you are to the limit, the less you will be able to gain. They were able to tell that they were only a few months away from the maximum they could extract, hence the amount of performance they still could extract would never be huge.
B) red bull still was developing the RBR during that period.
C) The mp4-28 was already faster then the previous around that point.
D) other teams like ferrari, lotus and mercedes also kept developing until the midseason point. Lotus maybe a bit further. We can safely assume they were further away from plateauing and hence were able to gain more from developments. Simply said, they would have outdeveloped the mp4-27B, within that half season.
#AeroFrodo

kooleracer
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Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

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turbof1 wrote:
They should have kept the good parts of the MP4-27 and redesigned the weaker parts of the car. That's how most teams build their 2013 car. That is not limiting creativity that is called improving on proven a concept. Building a new cars shows a lack of creativity. Because you get blank peace of paper and you can try everything you want that's easier to do. To be creative is think off things that have been thought of yet. The lack of creativity pushed them to build a new car for 2013, if they were creative enough they would have found a way to improve on the 2012 car like almost every team did.
That's what I've been trying to tell: there was not enough improvement anymore to be found! The whole concept bore that weakness, and the concept had to be changed.

Define what's good and right. There's little you or I can tell on that front. We only know that mclaren had issues with stalling the diffuser. Do you know what caused it? I personally don't.

Formula 1 nowadays doesn't really have "bad parts"; parts can interact poorly with eachother. Mclaren philosophy was to keep it rather simple on that front. In order to gain more performance they to develop more complexities. They failed at that and paid the price, but they also learn from it how to do it right.

Again, Mercedes took the same walk of pain. Only earlier. In my opinion Neal deserves his spot. He had the balls to make that call. The mp4-27 was considered a dead end. He had to do what paddy lowe and pat fry failed to do. If you want to blame him for doing the right call wrong, then I respect that, but the way I see it mclaren was never going to challenge for the 2013 title anyway. Either you had a mp4-27B that was predictably slow or a mp4-28 driving unpredictably.

Currently we see mclaren having a too narrow optimal operating window for their tyres. This sounds exactly like mercedes back in 2012. If mclaren gets that right next year and their engine is competitive, then the 2 years of learning will pay off.
This year we see a McLaren with a inherent lack of downforce, the 2013 car had the same issue. The front-wing is maxed out and the drivers are still complaining about the lack of downforce. The lack of downforce means that they can't generate as much G-force the keep the tyre in the right window. Thats why McLaren was almost 2 seconds slower during qualifying then Mercedes on a high downforce track like Suzuka. ScarbsF1 explained that in one of his latest video about updates.

I blame particularly Neale but the rest of the so-called "directors" at McLaren also. TurboF1 I get the feeling you like "bold" or "cowboy wild western" management. I like managers that get results and make wise decisions to be frank.
Irvine:"If you don't have a good car you can't win it, unless you are Michael or Senna. Lots of guys won in Adrian Newey's cars, big deal. Adrian is the real genius out there, there is Senna, there is Michael and there is Newey.They were the three great talents."

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Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

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mikeerfol wrote:So it's official, Sam Michael is out.
https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/stat ... 4030684160
Hallelujah. Michael has been over-rated since his Jordan/Hill Jr./Schumacher Jr. zenith.

Same is true for Andy Benson by the way, although I may be personally biased.
Last edited by SidSidney on Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

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Too much information.


:P :P