a thought I had for liquid-air radiator positioning...

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
acosmichippo
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a thought I had for liquid-air radiator positioning...

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Hello everyone!

Firstly, let me say I'm not sure if this is technically the correct place to post this - it touches on a few subjects. Please feel free to move if necessary.

Anyway, as I was reading the F14-T thread, I got to thinking about Ferrari's possible air-liquid intercooler, and how that heat must still be dumped from the liquid into the air somehow. Now, please keep in mind, I'm a computer guy before a car guy, so this may just be crazy talk, but I was thinking where the ideal place would be to put a radiator on an F1 car to dissipate heat, and my first thought was the floor.

1) The floor already has a large surface area exposed to a lot of airflow
2) If they were to make the floor a metal radiator instead of putting a metal radiator somewhere else (higher up) on the car, it ought to have a lower center of gravity. assuming they have the same mass, there shouldn't be a downside there.
3) the radiator would cause the air underneath the car to heat up, allowing the possibility to use it to some aerodynamic advantage

Or if not the floor, maybe ferrari is trying to energize air in a different area of the car to emulate the blown diffuser?

Anyway, let me know what you guys think!

wesley123
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Re: a thought I had for liquid-air radiator positioning...

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what happens when the floor is damaged?
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

acosmichippo
acosmichippo
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Re: a thought I had for liquid-air radiator positioning...

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same thing that happens now? if it's just bent up a bit, it should be fine. If it's really messed up, the race would have been over with a normal floor anyway.

riff_raff
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Re: a thought I had for liquid-air radiator positioning...

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With regards to the overall efficiency of a heat exchanger installation (like an intercooler), in terms of aero drag, weight, volume, etc, a conventional aluminum air-to-air design is actually quite good. What makes the conventional aluminum tube/fin core design so efficient is the heat transfer efficiency and low drag created by the massive surface area of the core design. Using the underbody surface as an intercooler heat exchanger would be far heavier and less efficient.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: a thought I had for liquid-air radiator positioning...

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Air to water inter-cooling is too heavy and power consuming for the 2014 formula.

Normally you would employ water cooling if you have multiple fluids to cool where space is too limited to run large diameter piping, or if the radiator must be located at a given space that is far away from the hot fluids you want to cool.

For example if the charge air-piping is three inch diamter, you can't snake that through a crowded engine bay, so you can use say, a water cooler and route from there using one inch piping to your main radiator in the cooling air stream. This scenario is not valid in formula 1. A formula one's car engine bay is not crowded.

Imagine if you had a Porsche turbo 800 coupe with the 800hp turbo engine over the rear axle. Due aerodynamics and cooling requirements the radiator must to be at the front of the vehicle. Looking at the solution, it will be too clumsy to route three inch charge air piping through the cabin on its way to the front bulkhead, not to mention you will have very poor throttle response due to the length of piping. The solution? Use air to water to water coolers of course. Instead of routing those big air pipes you instead route water lines, maybe an inch or so in diameter in flexible hosing to the front of vehicle. With that said however, there is no such problem in Formula 1! The side pods are right next to the engine.

As per cooling efficiency, I know water cooling gives a larger heat sink up until the volume of water has warmed up, but I am not sure if it is more efficient since you have to go air to water to air... I will have to check back my heat transfer notes on that one..lol
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bhall
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Re: a thought I had for liquid-air radiator positioning...

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Gordon Murray tried something similar with the BT46 in 1978. It didn't work.

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Moxie
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Re: a thought I had for liquid-air radiator positioning...

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I am not an aerodynamics expert either, heck, I don't even know enough to consider myself a novice. An intelligent bystander perhaps. Anyway I have thought about these issues myself as I am designing my retirement project. Here are some things to consider:

Ferrari experimented with plate radiators (on one of the 312 models if I remember correctly) but quickly found that the heat exchange was not efficient enough, and reverted to traditional radiators.

In regard to my retirement project,I considered using plate radiators to transfer some heat to the under body ahead of the diffuser, thereby accomplishing two things: creating some downforce, and reducing the necessary size of the radiator that must catch wind, thereby reducing drag. However, my car, if it is ever built, will not have side pods.

The shape of an F1 side pod is highly influenced by the Meredith effect. I will not pretend to understand the aerodynamics involved, but the end effect is that the side pod produces thrust. As I understand it, the amount of thrust produced is enough to make up for the drag created by the radiators. I'm guessing that the clever F1 engineers also use this hot air flowing from the side pod to manage air flow at the rear of the car.

While your idea may have some merit on the face of it (at least to this intelligent bystander), ultimately the validity of the idea lays in the trade-offs.

olefud
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Re: a thought I had for liquid-air radiator positioning...

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If by radiator you mean a surface radiator, the heat exchange would be very poor to none existent at low speed. These were used on early airplanes with rather poor results. Getting the radiator out of the boundary layer and into airstream is very important –think the P-51 dog house. The hot air adjacent the radiator surface would promote a thick, insulating boundary layer.

wuzak
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Re: a thought I had for liquid-air radiator positioning...

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olefud wrote:If by radiator you mean a surface radiator, the heat exchange would be very poor to none existent at low speed. These were used on early airplanes with rather poor results. Getting the radiator out of the boundary layer and into airstream is very important –think the P-51 dog house. The hot air adjacent the radiator surface would promote a thick, insulating boundary layer.
The racing seaplanes of the late 1920s/early 1930s were probably the most succesful at using this.

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But they needed lots of surface area. All the bronze coloured bits are for cooling (the nose is for oil cooling, IIRC). Can't seee clearly but the upper and lower surfaces of the wings are largely covered by these cooling panels.

acosmichippo
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Re: a thought I had for liquid-air radiator positioning...

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olefud wrote:Getting the radiator out of the boundary layer and into airstream is very important...
That makes a lot of sense, should have thought of that. Thanks!

Tommy Cookers
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Re: a thought I had for liquid-air radiator positioning...

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race car surface radiators that seemed successful were the Nardi and Taruffi's TARF (both 'catamaran' configuration cars)
and the early Vanwall
all these were 'leading edge' installations and had IIRC streamwise finning, which would be unsuitable for floor installation

chip engineer
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Re: a thought I had for liquid-air radiator positioning...

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Tommy Cookers wrote:race car surface radiators that seemed successful were the Nardi and Taruffi's TARF (both 'catamaran' configuration cars)
and the early Vanwall
all these were 'leading edge' installations and had IIRC streamwise finning, which would be unsuitable for floor installation
How about using a surface radiator (with streamwise finning) for an air to air intercooler on the engine cover?
It would at least save sending the compressed air to the sidepods and back.

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joseff
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Re: a thought I had for liquid-air radiator positioning...

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I imagine cooling plates up there would compromise CoG