Why did the F1 V10s weigh so little

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aspetuck
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Why did the F1 V10s weigh so little

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I was looking at engine weights, and saw that the V10 era engines were way way lighter than, say, an Audi or BMW production V10. Where do all these weight savings come from?

el-Magico
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Re: Why did the F1 V10s weigh so little

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Exotic materials.. Way to expensive for regular street V10's?
Also these F1v10's had a shorter life duration.. or how do you say that?

Edit: thx AnthonyG
Last edited by el-Magico on 23 Mar 2014, 12:24, edited 2 times in total.
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Tim.Wright
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Re: Why did the F1 V10s weigh so little

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A large portion of it would be the fact that the road going V10 are cira 5L and the F1's were 3L if I remembr correct. So significantly less mass in the pistons, and smaller blocks too. Then there are the conrods which are much much shorter compared to a road car. Also a large portion of dead mass on a production car is the flywheel which is absent on an F1 engine.
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lkocev
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Re: Why did the F1 V10s weigh so little

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This is a good question, because the engines during this era weighed remarkably little. There is not really a single reason, but I would say that perhaps the best blanketing reason we can attribute it to, is that they were designed right from the ground up to be as light as they possibly could. Road engines are usually far more robust in design nature.

http://sd-2.archive-host.com/membres/up ... BMW_F1.pdf

This a link you might find interesting, I believe an engineering student who posted on this forum did this as his thesis (please don't shoot me if I'm wrong) but it is quite interesting reading just how large the improvements were that BMW made year after year in terms of weight reduction, and 'packaging' envelope. In fact the P85, the final of the BMW V10 fully assembled was only 82kg!!! So we can imagine that things like casting wall thicknesses were an absolute minimum, and what ever material could be removed, was.

I think what we see is that when the V8's came in, there was a very conservative 95kg minimum limit which didn't exist during the V10 era, so the limiting factor was really only how good the design was, and perhaps the application of particular materials for particular functions or load conditions. Remember the material scope during this era was a little bit bigger, so there is something to be gained there.

Lastly, don't forget the basic geometry of these engines, there stroke is typically somewhere around 40mm. This is important because your conrod length is typically some multiple of your stroke length, so the blocks of these engines had remarkably low deck height, there is plenty to be saved there. Typically road engines are not so 'oversquare' in nature so there not really even comparable in that regard.

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Pierce89
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Re: Why did the F1 V10s weigh so little

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Its because the v10s were the las f1 engines without a minimum weight and they had open development, so they were far more "weight optimised" than any engines since.
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Edis
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Re: Why did the F1 V10s weigh so little

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el-Magico wrote:Exotic materials.. Way to expansive for regular street V10's?
Also these F1v10's had a shorter life duration.. or how do you say that?
The aluminum alloys, the steel grades and so on are a bit better than what you find in a production engine, but the materials you find in the F1 engines of that era are not that exotic. The difference in weight is mostly due to design, and of course, the fact that these F1 engines are much smaller than a production V10 (which typically have a displacement of about 5 litres). Thinwall castings, intricate machining and sheetmetal fabrications that are used in F1 are unsuitable to economic mass production. Roadcar engines also have additional requirements such as noise, vibration, emissions, drivability and lifetime that are not met by a F1 engine.

riff_raff
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Re: Why did the F1 V10s weigh so little

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One of the notable differences besides weight is just how compact F1 engines are.

As Edis noted, F1 engines use premium materials, and the components are intricately machined to eliminate every last gram of mass. This would not be economically acceptable with a mass produced engine.
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wunderkind
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Re: Why did the F1 V10s weigh so little

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Also, the F1 V10s were only designed to last one race weekend or two. No more.

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AnthonyG
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Re: Why did the F1 V10s weigh so little

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el-Magico wrote:Exotic materials.. Way to expansive for regular street V10's?
Also these F1v10's had a shorter life duration.. or how do you say that?
Expensive

To expand==>to grow larger
To be expensive==> not cheap :wink:
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marcush.
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Re: Why did the F1 V10s weigh so little

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Back then in 2000 I happened to visit ARP and we went into their testlab for some destruktive Testung of bolts to verify a potential issue with a bolt Design.
There was a Batch of Bolts with Illmor labeling waiting for a Test as well.Those bolts looked very much made from unobtainium... :wink:
I was friendly advised Not to Look too much and NOT Touch.
The Guy from ARP had to leave the lab for another reason and so I had a few Moments ....I just had to Grab One of those bolts.
it was unreal.These bolts were Not really small ..Like M10 or something and of considerable length .but now the stark contrast of the Weight made me giggle...considerably less than a similar Aluminium bolt .

To my embarrassment the ARP Guy came back Short Time later ,grabend One of the bolts ,gave it to me and Asked :ever Seen something as unreal as this ?
i had to pretend being surprised a Bit.
he did Not elaborate what alloys or what purpose unfortunatelly ...but I surely was Impressed.
Last edited by marcush. on 23 Mar 2014, 14:10, edited 1 time in total.

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thedutchguy
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Re: Why did the F1 V10s weigh so little

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wunderkind wrote:Also, the F1 V10s were only designed to last one race weekend or two. No more.
Actually, in 2005 engines had to last for two race weekends.

BMW also claims that without weight restrictions, they could have built a 69kg V8 engine.

"The stipulated dimensions and the minimum weight of 95 kg provided the basis for a robust design concept, but also meant that the P86 had to be designed from scratch. Without these restrictions, it would have been possible to develop a 2.4-litre V8 based on the V10 that would have weighed just 69 kg."

http://sd-2.archive-host.com/membres/up ... BMW_F1.pdf

flyboy2160
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Re: Why did the F1 V10s weigh so little

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I have this (probably never to be fulfilled) fantasy that the Greens will latch onto "lightweight" as "green." They seem to ignore that the super efficient fuel economy competition cars are all super light.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Why did the F1 V10s weigh so little

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agreed !
manufacturers in the 'energy crisis' 1970s said light weight was the dominant factor in fuel economy

BMW in F1 went to a integral construction (head, block etc are one) as a major weight saver but this was then banned
apart from the obvious it also allowed even closer bore centres
high bore:stroke ratios make integral construction less difficult
it has been tried in road vehicle (prototypes)

before about 1930 all engines were rather integrally constructed, as the viable head gasket did not then exist