Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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motobaleno
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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mzso wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:49 am
How do you know? Tsunoda was dead last for whatever reason. Why not change the PU?
doing that before 4th PU is not only pointless but also detrimental. Now if they introduce a reliability upgrade they could update only the 3rd PU, having already homologated the first 2

Bill
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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the pu are built serviced in sakura japan so the is no diminished Honda involvement RBr pu division is not up and running its a dummy

Alexf1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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kevpasca wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 5:18 pm
So.., the new RA622H only lasts for one and a half races? How did that happen?
.
No, PU1 just needs to go to Sakura for in depth inspection so they know what's wrong with it and if its safe to run it again. As there is no other unit in his pool yet he needs to take a second PU.

kevpasca
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Alexf1 wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:10 pm
No, PU1 just needs to go to Sakura for in depth inspection so they know what's wrong with it and if its safe to run it again. As there is no other unit in his pool yet he needs to take a second PU.
I hope it can be used again. But the new engine that he had taken before, reportedly just broke down. God, it is only used for one free practice.

mclaren_mircea
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Helmuth is lying us!!!! At least he doesnt tell the true about Alpha Tauri regarding the engines problems.

@autosport f1
19:30 It's been a hugely difficult weekend for Tsunoda - apparent powertrain problems stopped him setting a lap in qualifying, and now they've stopped him before the race could begin.
Last edited by mclaren_mircea on Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jaisonas
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Engine looked like it was running, im guessing gearbox or hydraulics grenaded themselves

dialtone
dialtone
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Horner said oil pressure on Tsunoda's to the Sky interview.

DinkLv
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Size and layout comparison of Honda's MGU-H Assembly (2015~2020 has been scaled to match the size of 2021):

Image

noname
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Latest Honda's F1 engine development, with pictures.
https://www.as-web.jp/f1/796738?all

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ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Looks like RedBull did get on top of the issues it faced last week. As for Alpha Tauri, it did seem that the AT03 still suffered from porpoising, which may be causing the issues in the power-train and gearbox. The Toro Rosso car bottomed out in Australia in it's first year which led to a power unit failure. Honda can still improve reliability and ERS/Battery performance, maybe even help in reducing weight. And as Wazari-san mentioned, it doesn't seem Honda is down on power due to E10 fuel.

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atanatizante
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:02 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:16 am

...

So what I`m thinking about the main reason is that when the car is running in a race at the end of it when has low fuel levels there are at least 3 conditions that are occurring:
1. fuel has the highest temperature in the fuel tank during a race
2. fuel and alcohol acts both as a solvent and for this year has twice the solvent/dissolving power
3. time sufficient to dissolve/attack etc. the resin in which lifting pump electronics were incapsulated, hence leading to this failure ...
Material selection is one of the first things you do as a designer. And it's pretty black and white usually. If you see alcohol whether 1% or 50% you will use alcohol resistant material.

E10 is not that corossive. It takes months or years to destroy hoses and seals in ill-equipped cars. The bigger problem was sludge it cleaned off the walls jamming up the injectors!

Maybe Scarbs has better authority and knowledge than me and you believe him when he said it`s a true possibility that the new fuel had affected the plastics which encapsulates fuel pump electronics:



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image post
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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atanatizante wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:47 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:02 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:16 am

...

So what I`m thinking about the main reason is that when the car is running in a race at the end of it when has low fuel levels there are at least 3 conditions that are occurring:
1. fuel has the highest temperature in the fuel tank during a race
2. fuel and alcohol acts both as a solvent and for this year has twice the solvent/dissolving power
3. time sufficient to dissolve/attack etc. the resin in which lifting pump electronics were incapsulated, hence leading to this failure ...
Material selection is one of the first things you do as a designer. And it's pretty black and white usually. If you see alcohol whether 1% or 50% you will use alcohol resistant material.

E10 is not that corossive. It takes months or years to destroy hoses and seals in ill-equipped cars. The bigger problem was sludge it cleaned off the walls jamming up the injectors!

Maybe Scarbs has better authority and knowledge than me and you believe him when he said it`s a true possibility that the new fuel had affected the plastics which encapsulates fuel pump electronics:



http://postimg.cc/8F0rVxqf
image post
It wasn't E10 degrading anything. They confirmed its low suction pressure. Very likely way below NPSHR required for the pump.
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hardingfv32
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I agree.... This is a fuel pump, electric motor, no electronics required. They are still operating under the same restrictions relative to fuel constituents that have been in place for years. Why would they come up with a more corrosive formulation now? This is a pump manufacture, would they not have a lot of knowledge about pumping corrosive fluids?

What are the chances of a dual failure at almost the same time from some kind of uncontrolled chemical reaction?

We should go with the vacuum theory volunteered by RB. It is much more logical to think is was the design or operation of the fuel cell's vent system unique to their car's.

So do the rules require a complex vent system or can the fuel cell simply vent to the atmosphere through a one way valve?

Brian

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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One will have a very hard time trying to find a more sophisticated and complicated fuel venting system inside a fuel thank than that used in F1. While high fuel temperatures will contribute to a fuel vacuum inside a pressure pump. This condition is minimized when the fuel is delivered to the pump inlet instead of the pump having to suck-up fuel. In the formula one fuel system, fuel is delivered to the transfer pump inlet under low pressure, and to the high pressure pump inlet under much more boosted pressure. The start of this delivery system starts at the fuel collector, which can keep this process ongoing for upper of half a minute with engine at full load with no fuel being delivered to the collector itself. Fuel delivery to the collector is by three or four lifter pumps. Which are designed to still being able to operate without damage when suction side runs out of fuel to pick-up. When one or more of these pumps inlet runs out of fuel any air they might have pumped into collector the remaining pump pumping fuel into collector would bleed off/vent off any air pumped into collector. If all lifter pump sensors detects their respective lifter pump not lifting fuel. The team will know that the car is going to run out of fuel before it happens.

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Big Tea
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:12 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:47 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:02 pm


Material selection is one of the first things you do as a designer. And it's pretty black and white usually. If you see alcohol whether 1% or 50% you will use alcohol resistant material.

E10 is not that corossive. It takes months or years to destroy hoses and seals in ill-equipped cars. The bigger problem was sludge it cleaned off the walls jamming up the injectors!

Maybe Scarbs has better authority and knowledge than me and you believe him when he said it`s a true possibility that the new fuel had affected the plastics which encapsulates fuel pump electronics:



http://postimg.cc/8F0rVxqf
image post
It wasn't E10 degrading anything. They confirmed its low suction pressure. Very likely way below NPSHR required for the pump.
But if the E10 was more volatile would it not be more prone to 'producing' vapor locks?
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