Red Bull RB18

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
User avatar
atanatizante
107
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:33 pm

Re: Red Bull RB18

Post

For the fact that I am a chemical engineer, I was interested in the reasons behind why both RB18 cars DNF the Bahrain race as they could be potential fuel-related now that they need to use E 10 fuel for the 2022 championship.

But firstly it is worth watching this explanatory video from Autosport.com to figure out what could be the most probable reasons that led to both failures on RB18 cars:



They said the main reasons were temperature related as follows:
1. Low fuel levels which led to heat it up
2. Forbidden devices to cool the fuel down
3. The safety car phase at the end of the race forced the cars to run slowly hence overheating, something that Nico Hulkenberg`s AMR22 car had experienced too even in race conditions

After seeing the video, from my technical point of view, I think they missed the new fuel factor but most of all the chemistry-physics properties it has ...

Using E10 means they need to use fuel comprising 10% ethanol from sustainable sources, compared to last year 5,75% ethanol obtained from non-sustainable sources. That means we have almost double the alcohol concentration in the fuel and that is the important factor! Then, both fuel and alcohol are solvents from the chemical properties POV: https://www.britannica.com/science/solvent-chemistry

So what I`m thinking about the main reason is that when the car is running in a race at the end of it when has low fuel levels there are at least 3 conditions that are occurring:
1. fuel has the highest temperature in the fuel tank during a race
2. fuel and alcohol acts both as a solvent and for this year has twice the solvent/dissolving power
3. time sufficient to dissolve/attack etc. the resin in which lifting pump electronics were incapsulated, hence leading to this failure ...

Above all those factors we have to take into account that every team has a special fuel formulated specifically for that ICE and they should test the pH and solvability of that fuel in order to evoid chemical erosion/distructive action upon encapsulated stuff in the fuel tank...

It`ll be interesting to know what countermeasures will be put in place bearing in mind that there will be hot races over the summer/hot climate in other parts of the world ...
Last edited by atanatizante on Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus

kalinka
kalinka
9
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:01 pm
Location: Hungary

Re: Red Bull RB18

Post

So they admit it wasn't a spec part that falied >
"Red Bull was secretive about the problem for a long time. First they pointed to the fuel pump that is supplied as standard part to the F1 teams, but Sergio Perez already announced that this was not the cause of the problem. A Red Bull system would have failed, but Red Bull didn't want to make the competition any the wiser and didn't release anything about the cause."

source : https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/107002/r ... -down.html

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
591
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Red Bull RB18

Post

kalinka wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:10 am
So they admit it wasn't a spec part that falied >
"Red Bull was secretive about the problem for a long time. First they pointed to the fuel pump that is supplied as standard part to the F1 teams, but Sergio Perez already announced that this was not the cause of the problem. A Red Bull system would have failed, but Red Bull didn't want to make the competition any the wiser and didn't release anything about the cause."

source : https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/107002/r ... -down.html
It's like the good old Renault PU days... :lol:
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

User avatar
Postmoe
15
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:57 pm

Re: Red Bull RB18

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:40 am
kalinka wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:10 am
So they admit it wasn't a spec part that falied >
"Red Bull was secretive about the problem for a long time. First they pointed to the fuel pump that is supplied as standard part to the F1 teams, but Sergio Perez already announced that this was not the cause of the problem. A Red Bull system would have failed, but Red Bull didn't want to make the competition any the wiser and didn't release anything about the cause."

source : https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/107002/r ... -down.html
It's like the good old Renault PU days... :lol:
Always blame the provider.

User avatar
jagunx51
185
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:06 am

Re: Red Bull RB18

Post

............!!!!

User avatar
dren
226
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:14 pm

Re: Red Bull RB18

Post

I read it was vapor lock due to overheating fuel. Sounds like they got it sorted.

The new nose looks like a similar attempt to what they had on the previous few cars.
Honda!

restless
restless
18
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 8:12 am

Re: Red Bull RB18

Post

dren wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:57 am
I read it was vapor lock due to overheating fuel. Sounds like they got it sorted.

The new nose looks like a similar attempt to what they had on the previous few cars.
They think they get it sorted... I am surprised they had such problem and hope they solved it for real :S

yallkok
yallkok
3
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:26 pm

Re: Red Bull RB18

Post

gluon wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:42 pm
mzso wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:56 pm
What's with the abnormal flashing: https://youtu.be/9RME6YkiVPw?t=126 ?
Really strange.
I've seen it before. I don't think it has any special meaning, probably just the way it works. Sometimes it can blink the lights out of phase. This is from the first tests of the wing lights:

Only the right light:
https://i.imgur.com/DH7xQVf.png

Both lights:
https://i.imgur.com/fK7u8HP.png
See This:

User avatar
RZS10
359
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:23 am

Re: Red Bull RB18

Post

I kinda doubt that it can only be the camera shutter speed vs. LED frequency? Even though LED lights always look weird in almost any car review on youtube, if you watch those.
In the onboard video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RME6YkiVPw as far as i can tell the only other car which shows that behaviour is the AT (already on lap1, Schumacher onboard 8:20, the car ahead of the Alpine is Gasly) and the main connection between those is the Honda engine - how the PU and/or the ERS/electrical systems could be related to weird flickering on the LEDs? No idea.

User avatar
HPD
198
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:06 pm

Re: Red Bull RB18

Post

In the same way I think that this issue is not suitable for this section of the forum.


Image

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:05 am
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Red Bull RB18

Post

A selection of posts that started to drift away from the RB18 and into fuel chemistry (and the effects thereof) has now been moved to the Honda Engine thread.

Very interesting convo, just not quite the right place for it
.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

User avatar
vorticism
323
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:20 pm

Re: Red Bull RB18

Post

Similar to Ferrari, I think they've placed a flat plane above the inclined floor edge to reduce its ability to provide positive lift. In the previous regulations I don't think we saw such a flat forward section for sidepods, because the floor was already flat beneath them.

Image
𓄀

GioKer32
GioKer32
10
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:00 pm

Re: Red Bull RB18

Post

Image
I'd like to highlight what in my opinion is the worst problem of the RB18 right now: the front pull rod.
Obviously it allowed the engineers to reduce the weight of the suspension arms and lower the CoG of the whole front corner of the car, however, I believe it is not suitable to generate enough heat on the front tires. This shows at turn 1-2 when Max had massive understeer and could barely stay near the apex. On top of that, I remember that back in 2015 Ferrari had similar problems with that same philosophy (just look at Monaco GP after the SC, when Seb lost about 5 seconds because of low temperature on front tires). What do you think of this? Every comment is well accepted.

BlueCheetah66
BlueCheetah66
32
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:23 pm

Re: Red Bull RB18

Post

GioKer32 wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:13 pm
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... -29-12.jpg
I'd like to highlight what in my opinion is the worst problem of the RB18 right now: the front pull rod.
Obviously it allowed the engineers to reduce the weight of the suspension arms and lower the CoG of the whole front corner of the car, however, I believe it is not suitable to generate enough heat on the front tires. This shows at turn 1-2 when Max had massive understeer and could barely stay near the apex. On top of that, I remember that back in 2015 Ferrari had similar problems with that same philosophy (just look at Monaco GP after the SC, when Seb lost about 5 seconds because of low temperature on front tires). What do you think of this? Every comment is well accepted.
Why is Pull-rod worse at generating heat on front tires compared to Push-rod?

User avatar
godlameroso
309
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Red Bull RB18

Post

Image

Different beam wing configurations were tested.

Moar outwash, rules be da**ed.
Saishū kōnā