Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:20 am
.. Assume we have a 100% efficient expander, 5 bar turbine inlet, 1 bar turbine outlet and a mass flow of 0.5 kg/s.
1. turbine inlet 800*K -> 148 kW and turbine outlet temp = 505*K
2. turbine inlet 1000*K -> 185 kW and turbine outlet temp = 631*K
Same pressure ratio but much higher power for hotter gas.
something must be different with the hotter gas (if its pressure and mass-flow are the same)
greater exhaust system volume ?
some effect of viscosity ?
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Maybe move all the engine talk to the turbo engine formula thread? A lot of conversations not aren't related to the Honda PU.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ispano6 wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:12 pm
Maybe move all the engine talk to the turbo engine formula thread? A lot of conversations not aren't related to the Honda PU.
they are in response to godl's apparently popular posts about features apparently unique to the Honda

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:00 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:20 am
.. Assume we have a 100% efficient expander, 5 bar turbine inlet, 1 bar turbine outlet and a mass flow of 0.5 kg/s.
1. turbine inlet 800*K -> 148 kW and turbine outlet temp = 505*K
2. turbine inlet 1000*K -> 185 kW and turbine outlet temp = 631*K
Same pressure ratio but much higher power for hotter gas.
something must be different with the hotter gas (if its pressure and mass-flow are the same)
greater exhaust system volume ?
some effect of viscosity ?
The hotter gas occupies a greater volume in accordance with the ideal gas law Pv=nRT.

EDIT. The greater volume equates to a greater volumetric flow rate through the turbine and therefore higher turbine power.
Last edited by gruntguru on Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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‘’The hotter gas occupies a greater volume in accordance with the ideal gas law – Pv-nRT.’’ They, all four does not go to the trouble of wrapping their exhaust system up to the turbo for nothing. They do so to preserve the gas hotness into the turbine as much as possible.

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ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:33 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:12 pm
Maybe move all the engine talk to the turbo engine formula thread? A lot of conversations not aren't related to the Honda PU.
they are in response to godl's apparently popular posts about features apparently unique to the Honda
I suppose, If it's actual published or Honda released information or photos of the ra622H depicting the architecture sure, but a lot of the conversations read as disagreements on physics or thermal dynamics and overall conjecture. Discussion on CAC bypass and what not could be in its own thread.

I would mention Honda Research Institute and what is in store for the ERS and ES upgrades that are expected to be applied before the Sept deadline. I can't say with 100% certainty but I reckon there are developments in the field of nanotechnology that may be a step from the ES introduced last year.

Or in other developments, would fluoride ion batteries be allowed to be introduced as an ES or is the chemistry restricted to lithium? Or could sodium ion batteries be introduced? A stretch perhaps, but not impossible. I tried to find details regarding the regulations restrictions and could not find information regarding the required chemistry.

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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ispano6 wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:11 am
I would mention Honda Research Institute and what is in store for the ERS and ES upgrades

that are expected to be applied before the Sept deadline.
Why? Do you have a source? That would mean penalties in Spa.
The Power of Honda!

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wouter wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:38 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:11 am
I would mention Honda Research Institute and what is in store for the ERS and ES upgrades

that are expected to be applied before the Sept deadline.
Why? Do you have a source? That would mean penalties in Spa.
Why penalties for ERS/ES upgrades?.

AR3-GP
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ispano6 wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:11 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:33 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:12 pm
Maybe move all the engine talk to the turbo engine formula thread? A lot of conversations not aren't related to the Honda PU.
they are in response to godl's apparently popular posts about features apparently unique to the Honda
I suppose, If it's actual published or Honda released information or photos of the ra622H depicting the architecture sure, but a lot of the conversations read as disagreements on physics or thermal dynamics and overall conjecture. Discussion on CAC bypass and what not could be in its own thread.

I would mention Honda Research Institute and what is in store for the ERS and ES upgrades that are expected to be applied before the Sept deadline. I can't say with 100% certainty but I reckon there are developments in the field of nanotechnology that may be a step from the ES introduced last year.

Or in other developments, would fluoride ion batteries be allowed to be introduced as an ES or is the chemistry restricted to lithium? Or could sodium ion batteries be introduced? A stretch perhaps, but not impossible. I tried to find details regarding the regulations restrictions and could not find information regarding the required chemistry.
Nanotechnology is good for power density of the ES.

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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:49 pm
Wouter wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:38 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:11 am
I would mention Honda Research Institute and what is in store for the ERS and ES upgrades

that are expected to be applied before the Sept deadline.
Why? Do you have a source? That would mean penalties in Spa.
Why penalties for ERS/ES upgrades?.
.
Uses elements until now exept a new gearbox for Max and Vettel. Credits: @THUR.

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The Power of Honda!

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aleks_ader
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Nanotechnology is just buzzword. I believe battery chemistry is slow and steady development of marginal gains and compromises. I don't expect miracles here in such short time.
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna

Alexf1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wouter wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:26 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:49 pm
Wouter wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:38 pm


Why? Do you have a source? That would mean penalties in Spa.
Why penalties for ERS/ES upgrades?.
.
Uses elements until now exept a new gearbox for Max and Vettel. Credits: @THUR.

https://i.ibb.co/MZdfbnR/F1-2022-Used-E ... 4-race.jpg
Looking at this table and the technical regulations I'm getting the feeling RBPT want to postpone the new MGU-K. The regulations state that you can wait till the 5th event after the hom deadline with a new spec if all cars would incurr a penalty by taking it. By letting Max and Sergio both take the third and final penalty free K in Hungary all cars (incl AT) will receive a penalty if they take another K. They could have done this trick in Spa too since it's the last event before the hom deadline of sep 1st for ERS components but maybe it would look too obvious that it's being done tactically instead of a reliability need like in Hungary. I expect a new ES and CE in Spa for Max and Sergio and later for AT. And the new K in US.

Alexf1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Alexf1 wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:47 pm
Wouter wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:26 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:49 pm


Why penalties for ERS/ES upgrades?.
.
Uses elements until now exept a new gearbox for Max and Vettel. Credits: @THUR.

https://i.ibb.co/MZdfbnR/F1-2022-Used-E ... 4-race.jpg
Looking at this table and the technical regulations I'm getting the feeling RBPT/HRC want to postpone the introduction of the new MGU-K. The regulations state that you can wait till the 5th event after the hom deadline with a new spec if all cars would incur a penalty by taking it. By letting Max and Sergio both take the third and final penalty free K in Hungary all cars (incl AT) will receive a penalty if they take another K. They could have done this trick in Spa too since it's the last event before the hom deadline of sep 1st for ERS components but maybe it would look too obvious that it's being done tactically instead of a reliability need like in Hungary. I expect the new spec ES and CE in Spa for Max and Sergio and maybe later for AT. The new K can be introduced in US and would only have to do 4 events in 2022 which would give RBPT/HRC coming winter to optimize software even further.

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ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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aleks_ader wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:38 pm
Nanotechnology is just buzzword. I believe battery chemistry is slow and steady development of marginal gains and compromises. I don't expect miracles here in such short time.
I'm assuming you didn't watch the NHK special on Honda's application of carbon nanotubes they developed 9years earlier that were applied to their ES upgrade last season and the later carbon nanoribbons that were described in a December '21 article. Don't know why you people brush off this type of research as buzzwords because it isn't. It's real R&D that gets applied in novel ways. And F1 is one of the very reasons to apply it. Their application of nanotubes isn't about battery chemistry, it's actually about resistance and the ability to drain and recharge faster than conventional carbon nanomaterials specifically utilizing the structural orientation of the nanotubes.

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DutchPanther
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ispano6 wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:38 am
aleks_ader wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:38 pm
Nanotechnology is just buzzword. I believe battery chemistry is slow and steady development of marginal gains and compromises. I don't expect miracles here in such short time.
I'm assuming you didn't watch the NHK special on Honda's application of carbon nanotubes they developed 9years earlier that were applied to their ES upgrade last season and the later carbon nanoribbons that were described in a December '21 article. Don't know why you people brush off this type of research as buzzwords because it isn't. It's real R&D that gets applied in novel ways. And F1 is one of the very reasons to apply it. Their application of nanotubes isn't about battery chemistry, it's actually about resistance and the ability to drain and recharge faster than conventional carbon nanomaterials specifically utilizing the structural orientation of the nanotubes.
All thanks to Wazari-San and team for all their hard work behind the CNT cells
How hard can it be? ~Jeremious Clarksonious