In-cylinder pressure sensors

[kaiski]

Hey guys,

I couldn't find an article/paragraph in the technical regulations of F1, where it's defined if in-cylinder pressure sensors are allowed to apply. So does anyone have more information about this topic or can give me an advice where i get details?

Thanks in advance for any help!

Greetings

kaiski

[trinidefender]

Hey guys,

I couldn't find an article/paragraph in the technical regulations of F1, where it's defined if in-cylinder pressure sensors are allowed to apply. So does anyone have more information about this topic or can give me an advice where i get details?

Thanks in advance for any help!

Greetings

kaiski

Really not sure if they are allowed so can't help you there however trying to fit 4 valves, a spark plug AND a pressure sensor would be quite the challenge. All it does is reduce the space available for the valves. As far as I'm aware they are only used in the design and testing stage of the engine.

Edit...yea I forgot the injector

[langwadt]

Hey guys,

I couldn't find an article/paragraph in the technical regulations of F1, where it's defined if in-cylinder pressure sensors are allowed to apply. So does anyone have more information about this topic or can give me an advice where i get details?

Thanks in advance for any help!

Greetings

kaiski

Really not sure if they are allowed so can't help you there however trying to fit 4 valves, a spark plug AND a pressure sensor would be quite the challenge. All it does is reduce the space available for the valves. As far as I'm aware they are only used in the design and testing stage of the engine.

valves, spark plug and an injector ...

you can get spark plugs with a pressure sensor port, and also pressure sensors that sit like a washer under the spark plug, though F1 spark plugs are tiny I think something like M8 threads

[Brian Coat]

You may find this interesting:

https://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/368 ... ransducers

Kistler do all the types and they each have advantages and disadvantages (other makers of precision piezo-electric pressure sensors are available!).

This does not answer the question about F1 legality - I doubt if they are banned because they are just instrumentation, like say a thermocouple.

[riff_raff]

While there are tiny water-cooled, high-frequency piezoelectric pressure transducers that can fit in an F1 engine combustion chamber, they are probably of not much benefit except during testing.

[Brian Coat]

You may well be right about the 'dyno test use only' bit.

Although I'd expect in cylinder pressure data would be useful, if you want to be very precise about how much fuel you are injecting (direct to cyl) for a given injection timing(s), cylinder temp, boost etc.

(They would not need water cooling, I believe).

[riff_raff]

http://www.kistler.com/us/en/product/pressure/6041B31

[Brian Coat]

This type is too big at M8.

That's a similar size to the plug on an F1 engine?

If you dismantle one, it's just an M5 type a la 6054 with an outer housing for the coolant jacket.

The 6054 piezo-star series is M5 with only a 1-2 mm chamber port requirement and can withstand the temperatures.

[majicmeow]

what about measuring the current consumed by the spark plug? BMW used to use ionic monitoring on the spark plugs in place of a more common knock sensor simply due to the increase in accuracy.

I'm sure there is a correlation between cylinder pressure and the current needed at the plug electrodes?

[gruntguru]

Spark voltage is indeed related to cylinder pressure among other things. The information available from the pressure sensors under discussion is vast by comparison. Precise information on cylinder pressure at every point in the cycle.