Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[.poz]

So the teams suspect Ferrari to use more energy than the allowed 4MJ in order to blow the RW via the MGU-H and still having enough energy left for the MGU-K. This would indicate that Ferrari is using a bigger ES than allowed which is super illegal and would be quite easy to discover by the FIA I guess. Also this whole topic of blowing the RW via the MGU-H based only on speculations..
This should go to the PU thread btw.

It's sound strange to me, how they generate this extra energy ?

suppositions on what they are doing

rules allows only 2MJ/lap from MGUK to ES, they generate more and use the extra (MGUK to MGUH) to spin the MGUH so they don't need to use ES to spin it when reaccelerating (legal)

they have built a VERY heavy turbo by purpose and use it as energy store using ES to MGUH to spin it and MGUH to MGUH (border line)

they have a "short circuit" in the MGUH so the energy goes from ES to MGUH to MGUK (illegal)

BTW ES hasn't a maximum capacity, rules says that difference from minium to maximum state of charge can't exceed 4MJ; i think that all teams have a bigger ES to improve durability and a bigger battery can endure a faster charge

[dankane24]

So the teams suspect Ferrari to use more energy than the allowed 4MJ in order to blow the RW via the MGU-H and still having enough energy left for the MGU-K. This would indicate that Ferrari is using a bigger ES than allowed which is super illegal and would be quite easy to discover by the FIA I guess. Also this whole topic of blowing the RW via the MGU-H based only on speculations..
This should go to the PU thread btw.

It's sound strange to me, how they generate this extra energy ?

suppositions on what they are doing

rules allows only 2MJ/lap from MGUK to ES, they generate more and use the extra (MGUK to MGUH) to spin the MGUH so they don't need to use ES to spin it when reaccelerating (legal)

they have built a VERY heavy turbo by purpose and use it as energy store using ES to MGUH to spin it and MGUH to MGUH (border line)

they have a "short circuit" in the MGUH so the energy goes from ES to MGUH to MGUK (illegal)

BTW ES hasn't a maximum capacity, rules says that difference from minium to maximum state of charge can't exceed 4MJ; i think that all teams have a bigger ES to improve durability and a bigger battery can endure a faster charge

This was what I was thinking too except under braking they open the waste gates and spin the turbo up to maximum rpm. This would have the added benefit of blowing the rear wing under breaking. Then on corner exit they harvest the energy back of the mguh and feed it to the mguk to get added acceleration out of corners. Would explain why Ferrari were being investigated for both off throttle aerodynamic blowing and over use of the battery as it would look like the mguk is outputting more than the 2Mj per lap. Whether it's legal I'm not sure, people who know the regs better can jump in here.

[nico5]

So the teams suspect Ferrari to use more energy than the allowed 4MJ in order to blow the RW via the MGU-H and still having enough energy left for the MGU-K. This would indicate that Ferrari is using a bigger ES than allowed which is super illegal and would be quite easy to discover by the FIA I guess. Also this whole topic of blowing the RW via the MGU-H based only on speculations..
This should go to the PU thread btw.

It's sound strange to me, how they generate this extra energy ?

suppositions on what they are doing

rules allows only 2MJ/lap from MGUK to ES, they generate more and use the extra (MGUK to MGUH) to spin the MGUH so they don't need to use ES to spin it when reaccelerating (legal)

they have built a VERY heavy turbo by purpose and use it as energy store using ES to MGUH to spin it and MGUH to MGUH (border line)

they have a "short circuit" in the MGUH so the energy goes from ES to MGUH to MGUK (illegal)

BTW ES hasn't a maximum capacity, rules says that difference from minium to maximum state of charge can't exceed 4MJ; i think that all teams have a bigger ES to improve durability and a bigger battery can endure a faster charge

This was what I was thinking too except under braking they open the waste gates and spin the turbo up to maximum rpm. This would have the added benefit of blowing the rear wing under breaking. Then on corner exit they harvest the energy back of the mguh and feed it to the mguk to get added acceleration out of corners. Would explain why Ferrari were being investigated for both off throttle aerodynamic blowing and over use of the battery as it would look like the mguk is outputting more than the 2Mj per lap. Whether it's legal I'm not sure, people who know the regs better can jump in here.

The only limit of 2MJ is the one from MGU-K to ES, which implies recovery under braking, so that limit is certainly under no questioning, since all simulation suggest the recovery from the K is around 0.7-1.5 MJ/lap on every track.

The second thing I'm not very sure about is how can you recover from H on exit? The engine does not provide enough energy/gases to the turbine on exit, with low gears and revs, to have the H on harvesting mode. And even if that was possible, which I doubt, that would imply having enough energy available to spin the turbine even off throttle. That is a massive span of time (20/30% of the lap), we still have to answer this fundamental question in the first place: how would they get that humungous amount of extra energy?

[Mr.G]

Speculation - they may use the "kinetic" energy of the H unit, if they designed it like a flying wheel...

[dankane24]

It's sound strange to me, how they generate this extra energy ?

suppositions on what they are doing

rules allows only 2MJ/lap from MGUK to ES, they generate more and use the extra (MGUK to MGUH) to spin the MGUH so they don't need to use ES to spin it when reaccelerating (legal)

they have built a VERY heavy turbo by purpose and use it as energy store using ES to MGUH to spin it and MGUH to MGUH (border line)

they have a "short circuit" in the MGUH so the energy goes from ES to MGUH to MGUK (illegal)

BTW ES hasn't a maximum capacity, rules says that difference from minium to maximum state of charge can't exceed 4MJ; i think that all teams have a bigger ES to improve durability and a bigger battery can endure a faster charge

This was what I was thinking too except under braking they open the waste gates and spin the turbo up to maximum rpm. This would have the added benefit of blowing the rear wing under breaking. Then on corner exit they harvest the energy back of the mguh and feed it to the mguk to get added acceleration out of corners. Would explain why Ferrari were being investigated for both off throttle aerodynamic blowing and over use of the battery as it would look like the mguk is outputting more than the 2Mj per lap. Whether it's legal I'm not sure, people who know the regs better can jump in here.

The only limit of 2MJ is the one from MGU-K to ES, which implies recovery under braking, so that limit is certainly under no questioning, since all simulation suggest the recovery from the K is around 0.7-1.5 MJ/lap on every track.

The second thing I'm not very sure about is how can you recover from H on exit? The engine does not provide enough energy/gases to the turbine on exit, with low gears and revs, to have the H on harvesting mode. And even if that was possible, which I doubt, that would imply having enough energy available to spin the turbine even off throttle. That is a massive span of time (20/30% of the lap), we still have to answer this fundamental question in the first place: how would they get that humungous amount of extra energy?

It wouldn't be the whole time off throttle but only when braking, using the extra energy generated by the mguk to spin up the turbo which should be easy enough with the waste gates open. When exiting the corner the turbo could be harvested and slowed down to get the electrical energy back. We're not talking massive amounts of power just a small boost combined with mood stable braking with the rear wing being blown. However this would only work if the teams are already hitting the restriction of 2Mj per lap harvesting by the mguk. If you are correct and they can't even harvest that amount currently then this would be pointless.

[Tom145145]

This was what I was thinking too except under braking they open the waste gates and spin the turbo up to maximum rpm. This would have the added benefit of blowing the rear wing under breaking. Then on corner exit they harvest the energy back of the mguh and feed it to the mguk to get added acceleration out of corners. Would explain why Ferrari were being investigated for both off throttle aerodynamic blowing and over use of the battery as it would look like the mguk is outputting more than the 2Mj per lap. Whether it's legal I'm not sure, people who know the regs better can jump in here.

The only limit of 2MJ is the one from MGU-K to ES, which implies recovery under braking, so that limit is certainly under no questioning, since all simulation suggest the recovery from the K is around 0.7-1.5 MJ/lap on every track.

The second thing I'm not very sure about is how can you recover from H on exit? The engine does not provide enough energy/gases to the turbine on exit, with low gears and revs, to have the H on harvesting mode. And even if that was possible, which I doubt, that would imply having enough energy available to spin the turbine even off throttle. That is a massive span of time (20/30% of the lap), we still have to answer this fundamental question in the first place: how would they get that humungous amount of extra energy?

It wouldn't be the whole time off throttle but only when braking, using the extra energy generated by the mguk to spin up the turbo which should be easy enough with the waste gates open. When exiting the corner the turbo could be harvested and slowed down to get the electrical energy back. We're not talking massive amounts of power just a small boost combined with mood stable braking with the rear wing being blown. However this would only work if the teams are already hitting the restriction of 2Mj per lap harvesting by the mguk. If you are correct and they can't even harvest that amount currently then this would be pointless.

It could be possible to get around the 4MJ MGUK limit by passing through the MGUH as this path is unlimited. The 4MJ ES Limit is only between min and max, so on a hot lap you could start full and if you say recovered 1.5MJ, then use 0.5 in the MGUH and pass 0.9MJ to the MGUK. Then the stores min and max differential would be 3.9MJ. (Please ignore the exact numbers, I’m just using them as examples)

[SonicBoom]

The idea of using the MGU-H as a method of bypassing the 2MJ per lap limit from the MGU-K to the ES seems plausible

I see two possible methods in which this could be achieved:

1) Design the MGU-H to have a lot of inertia (as has already been suggested) and use it a sort of intermediary energy storage. When under braking the MGU-K would feed excess power directly to the MGU-H, and once fully spun up the energy would feed into the battery. This would have the downsides of having a turbo with large inertia, although this may not be an issue since it can be still be electrically spun up if needed.

2) Keep the MGU-H a standard size and just modulate its speed/rpm during the braking phase. i.e. spin up the MGU-H to max speed (using excess energy from the MGU-K) and then offload its energy to the battery and repeat the process all under braking. This would have the downside of being a little complicated to control, especially ensuring a constant braking force, but I feel this would be possible.

This could be done purely for increased power/efficiencies, here are few things which would support this:
- Ferrari engines seem to have made significant improvements since last year - relative to others
- Vettel was reported as having issues under braking in Australia
- Reports of the Ferrari waste gates being open during braking/cornering.
- Ferrari have stopped running the monkey seat this year which would suggest they are not wanting the exhaust/bypass to affect the aero


Regarding the idea that teams are only able to recover 0.7-1.5MJ from the MGU-K, seems odd if you consider:

The energy lost during deacceleration on a single corner, say from 300kph (83m/s) to 100kph (27m/s)

The energy would be:
e=1/2mv^2
Pre braking energy : 0.5 x 700kg x 83^2 = ~2410000= 2.4MJ

Turn entry energy:0.5 x 700kg x 27^2 = ~255000= 0.25MJ

So the energy loss during a single breaking zone = ~2.2MJ

Using a brake distribution 55/45 of front-rear, that would still give ~1MJ braking energy at a single turn. I guess the electronic control system and MGU-K would have a combined loss of ~10-20%? That means it would only take ~3 braking zones per lap to fully charge the battery. Baku, for example, had 3 such(~2.4MJ) braking zones, plus 3- 4 turns that would be worth ~1.5MJ.

[henry]

The idea of using the MGU-H as a method of bypassing the 2MJ per lap limit from the MGU-K to the ES seems plausible

I see two possible methods in which this could be achieved:

1) Design the MGU-H to have a lot of inertia (as has already been suggested) and use it a sort of intermediary energy storage. When under braking the MGU-K would feed excess power directly to the MGU-H, and once fully spun up the energy would feed into the battery. This would have the downsides of having a turbo with large inertia, although this may not be an issue since it can be still be electrically spun up if needed.

2) Keep the MGU-H a standard size and just modulate its speed/rpm during the braking phase. i.e. spin up the MGU-H to max speed (using excess energy from the MGU-K) and then offload its energy to the battery and repeat the process all under braking. This would have the downside of being a little complicated to control, especially ensuring a constant braking force, but I feel this would be possible.

This could be done purely for increased power/efficiencies, here are few things which would support this:
- Ferrari engines seem to have made significant improvements since last year - relative to others
- Vettel was reported as having issues under braking in Australia
- Reports of the Ferrari waste gates being open during braking/cornering.
- Ferrari have stopped running the monkey seat this year which would suggest they are not wanting the exhaust/bypass to affect the aero


Regarding the idea that teams are only able to recover 0.7-1.5MJ from the MGU-K, seems odd if you consider:

The energy lost during deacceleration on a single corner, say from 300kph (83m/s) to 100kph (27m/s)

The energy would be:
e=1/2mv^2
Pre braking energy : 0.5 x 700kg x 83^2 = ~2410000= 2.4MJ

Turn entry energy:0.5 x 700kg x 27^2 = ~255000= 0.25MJ

So the energy loss during a single breaking zone = ~2.2MJ

Using a brake distribution 55/45 of front-rear, that would still give ~1MJ braking energy at a single turn. I guess the electronic control system and MGU-K would have a combined loss of ~10-20%? That means it would only take ~3 braking zones per lap to fully charge the battery. Baku, for example, had 3 such(~2.4MJ) braking zones, plus 3- 4 turns that would be worth ~1.5MJ.

You are missing the energy dissipated by air resistance, worth upwards of 1g at max speed. Also at top speed the braking power possible exceeds the 120kw available. Both reduce the capacity you describe.

[godlameroso]

What happened to this thread? Why are things we already agreed aren't and are happening being discussed again?

[Zynerji]

What happened to this thread? Why are things we already agreed aren't and are happening being discussed again?

Because:

Consensus != Fact

[hurril]

What happened to this thread? Why are things we already agreed aren't and are happening being discussed again?

Because:

Consensus != Fact

This not per our agreement

[JPBD1990]

What happened to this thread? Why are things we already agreed aren't and are happening being discussed again?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought it was because of a new report around Ferrari potentially exceeded max allowed energy recovery per lap? I’m certainly interested to learn more, considering I know literally nothing and have anxiety that some loophole Ferrari might be exploiting will be closed and we’ll tumble down the field... I’m quite enjoying Ferrari genuinely being the fastest car... for the first time since 2008.

[Just_a_fan]

If what they are doing is contrary to the rules - as suggested by some - then they aren't using a loophole, they're cheating. However, until the FIA slowly grinds its way to announcing the facts and the outcome of the case, we're all in the dark together.

If the FIA does "clarify" the situation other than in Ferrari's favour, it will be interesting to see how much pace they lose as a result. If it's only worth a tenth or two then that will make the season even closer as that is their current pace advantage. If it's worth half a second, then it makes Ferrari's job very difficult for the rest of the season.

The "conspiracy question" is whether the FIA will allow/ban what Ferrari are doing on the basis that it's legal or on the basis that it might create an arms race for the rest of the season. Such an arms race will doubtless be expensive and no doubt outlawed next season so making it all rather pointless. No doubt Mercedes are already working on something similar "just in case"...which way will the FIA go - down the rabbit hole or not?

[Tom145145]

The idea of using the MGU-H as a method of bypassing the 2MJ per lap limit from the MGU-K to the ES seems plausible

I see two possible methods in which this could be achieved:

1) Design the MGU-H to have a lot of inertia (as has already been suggested) and use it a sort of intermediary energy storage. When under braking the MGU-K would feed excess power directly to the MGU-H, and once fully spun up the energy would feed into the battery. This would have the downsides of having a turbo with large inertia, although this may not be an issue since it can be still be electrically spun up if needed.

2) Keep the MGU-H a standard size and just modulate its speed/rpm during the braking phase. i.e. spin up the MGU-H to max speed (using excess energy from the MGU-K) and then offload its energy to the battery and repeat the process all under braking. This would have the downside of being a little complicated to control, especially ensuring a constant braking force, but I feel this would be possible.

This could be done purely for increased power/efficiencies, here are few things which would support this:
- Ferrari engines seem to have made significant improvements since last year - relative to others
- Vettel was reported as having issues under braking in Australia
- Reports of the Ferrari waste gates being open during braking/cornering.
- Ferrari have stopped running the monkey seat this year which would suggest they are not wanting the exhaust/bypass to affect the aero


Regarding the idea that teams are only able to recover 0.7-1.5MJ from the MGU-K, seems odd if you consider:

The energy lost during deacceleration on a single corner, say from 300kph (83m/s) to 100kph (27m/s)

The energy would be:
e=1/2mv^2
Pre braking energy : 0.5 x 700kg x 83^2 = ~2410000= 2.4MJ

Turn entry energy:0.5 x 700kg x 27^2 = ~255000= 0.25MJ

So the energy loss during a single breaking zone = ~2.2MJ

Using a brake distribution 55/45 of front-rear, that would still give ~1MJ braking energy at a single turn. I guess the electronic control system and MGU-K would have a combined loss of ~10-20%? That means it would only take ~3 braking zones per lap to fully charge the battery. Baku, for example, had 3 such(~2.4MJ) braking zones, plus 3- 4 turns that would be worth ~1.5MJ.

Could the motor-generator unit on the turbo be in 2 parts? If it can, you could drive it from the ES and generate power to drive the MGUK. This would bypass the 4MJ/Lap MGUK limit. This would come with losses but it could be worth it as it is already limited. Also if the 2MJ MGUK recovery could be reached you could do this in reverse.

[godlameroso]

Honda is already on record saying they do this, honestly it's nothing new. You send energy to the MGU-H from the MGU-K the turbo speeds up, then you slow it down and harvest that energy. There is no limit to harvesting this way, it just costs you crank power. The batteries can have more than 4MJ capacity, you just can't send more than 4MJ from the ES to the MGU-K per lap. This of course says nothing about how much you can deploy to the K via the H which is unlimited.

In conclusion there is no cheating going on, just a team making use of the regulations. There are sensors on the car measuring output to the K and the SOC per lap. So if they were deploying more than 4 MJ per lap from ES to K they'd be found out rather quickly.

The only thing the regulations care about is the path the energy takes. You're limited to sending energy from the battery to the MGU-K, you can only recover 2 MJ from the engine via the K, but the turbo is free. Of course it's inefficient to feed energy from the K to the H then to the ES, or ES to H to K. There is another path to the K and to the ES that bypasses the H and that's an "engine ancillary" which is not bound by the harvesting requirements.

We discussed this in the Renault engine thread, and it would amount to a capacitor storage driven off the MGU-K. It's not illegal, but would it be worth it? We thought about using the engine oiling system as a hydraulic capacitor. There's a large oil tank with some 8 liters of oil and the dry sump system is driven by the engine as an ancillary to start with. The regulations allow an externally driven pump to be geared to the MGU-K, and power to this system can be supplied by a variety of means, one of which is the transmission itself.

This would be the only way to "cheat" so to speak.