Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[saviour stivala]

Ok, let’s take a step back and try to find a convergent point on the interpretations of the ERS rules.
Let us for example except that other than when braking the “K” can also harvest under engine power, and that the unlimited flow from “H” to “K” can be delivered on to the crankshaft. Also (of which is a fact as per the rules) the “H” flow to “ES” is unlimited. Now when Verstappen was defending and he radioed his pits saying he had no power to deploy, the prompt answer from his pit was (you used it all). It is important to note that Verstappen’s car had no technical problems, neither with any of the ERS component. So why was it that he ran out of electric power deployment for that lap, and all returned to normal on the next lap?

[Oehrly]

Ok, let’s take a step back and try to find a convergent point on the interpretations of the ERS rules.
Let us for example except that other than when braking the “K” can also harvest under engine power, and that the unlimited flow from “H” to “K” can be delivered on to the crankshaft. Also (of which is a fact as per the rules) the “H” flow to “ES” is unlimited. Now when Verstappen was defending and he radioed his pits saying he had no power to deploy, the prompt answer from his pit was (you used it all). It is important to note that Verstappen’s car had no technical problems, neither with any of the ERS component. So why was it that he ran out of electric power deployment for that lap, and all returned to normal on the next lap?

We can't know what terminology the teams use on the radio and how exact this terminology is in terms of technicalities. What I mean is, you want to give the driver the info he needs to know but nothing more. The driver needs to concentrate on driving. So one possible explanation for what was said on the radio might be (yes, I am assuming some things here):

"Power to deploy" refers to sending power from ES to MGUK directly (!). Verstappen may already have used the allowed 4MJ for this lap.
Most people here think (including me) that the MGUK now still can be driven from the MGUH or through the ominous ES -> MGUH -> MGUK route.
Let's assume 60kW as maximum MGUH Power. In that case the MGUK can now only be driven with these 60kW from the MGUH. Compared to the 120kW when driven directly from the ES Max has "no power to deploy".

Another assumption: Refering to ES -> MGUK as "deploy" could also mean that driving the K from the H is considered "normal" operation.

There are certainly other ways to interpret this radio message. But I think we should be careful with interpretation of radio messages, they might be fake but at the very least they are never going to go into to much technical details.

[apexcontrol]

Ok, let’s take a step back and try to find a convergent point on the interpretations of the ERS rules.
Let us for example except that other than when braking the “K” can also harvest under engine power, and that the unlimited flow from “H” to “K” can be delivered on to the crankshaft. Also (of which is a fact as per the rules) the “H” flow to “ES” is unlimited. Now when Verstappen was defending and he radioed his pits saying he had no power to deploy, the prompt answer from his pit was (you used it all). It is important to note that Verstappen’s car had no technical problems, neither with any of the ERS component. So why was it that he ran out of electric power deployment for that lap, and all returned to normal on the next lap?

just look @ the flowcharts is easy to see the options how to use more then you think you can use.

H to K has no limit so the options to harvest that power are there... forget the rest

higher topspeed is the most easy thing to get out of this.

[saviour stivala]

"I have no power to deploy" "you have used it all".
The only two possible electric power flow (supply) to the MGU-K is either from ES or MGU-H. The only possible electric power to deploy to the crankshaft is through the MGU-K.

If Verstappen had no electric power left to deploy it means that there was no electric power to supply left in the ES and the MGU-H. (YOU HAVE USED IT ALL).
This in spite of the MGU-H electric power flow to the MGU-K is unlimited, and the interpretations of the rules by some on here is that the unlimited MGU-H to MGU-K electric power supply can be deployed to the crankshaft by the MGU-K.

[apexcontrol]

"I have no power to deploy" "you have used it all".
The only two possible electric power flow (supply) to the MGU-K is either from ES or MGU-H. The only possible electric power to deploy to the crankshaft is through the MGU-K.

If Verstappen had no electric power left to deploy it means that there was no electric power to supply left in the ES and the MGU-H. (YOU HAVE USED IT ALL).
This in spite of the MGU-H electric power flow to the MGU-K is unlimited, and the interpretations of the rules by some on here is that the unlimited MGU-H to MGU-K electric power supply can be deployed to the crankshaft by the MGU-K.

well its easy to see that they are not getting power from ES only...they use both. some can use more then others.
when H to K can be there al the time ....only ES is restricted and will run out of.

the only real question is how to make......H to K effective. when not in a situation with excess fuel.

[cheeRS]

Ok, let’s take a step back and try to find a convergent point on the interpretations of the ERS rules.
Let us for example except that other than when braking the “K” can also harvest under engine power, and that the unlimited flow from “H” to “K” can be delivered on to the crankshaft. Also (of which is a fact as per the rules) the “H” flow to “ES” is unlimited. Now when Verstappen was defending and he radioed his pits saying he had no power to deploy, the prompt answer from his pit was (you used it all). It is important to note that Verstappen’s car had no technical problems, neither with any of the ERS component. So why was it that he ran out of electric power deployment for that lap, and all returned to normal on the next lap?

I think their are a couple of assumptions you have made here:

1. When Max "radioed his pits saying he had no power to deploy", your assumption is that the SOC of his ES was at maximum, but he had to wait until the next lap to reset his 4MJ/lap allotment.

--> Was the SOC really at the maximum, or did Max simply use all of the excess energy (think "overtake mode") at that time? Remember, the PU maps are more or less automated, so the only effect the driver has on the PU usage/SOC is driving style, engine map/overtake mode/qualifying mode/"boost" button. Other than that, the PU should be in self sustaining mode, where the SOC is similar at the finish of each lap. It seems clear that Max used all the extra "power" from whatever mode he was in. I say "power" because it may have been fuel (ICE -> _H -> _K) or ES->_K that was the constraint. The _H could have recharged the ES, but that would have required "extra" fuel, and the team may have been saying "Max, you don't have any extra fuel to recharge, so you'll have to wait for the normal map to bring you to maximum SOC".

Think of it this way: each manufacturer has an optimum map for each track. That map will allow the best lap time for the entirety of the race without totally draining the ES and without using all fuel too early. In addition, there are more powerful modes - call them "overtake" or "party mode" that can be used to defend position (as in Max's case) or catch up quickly, but those modes have limited duration. After they are exhausted, more harvesting than normal must take place to recharge them. It might take a slow(er) lap, or it might take 5 slow(er) laps to recharge the party mode. These modes just don't get reset after you cross the start/finish line. It's the same reason Mercedes can't do 5 party mode laps in a row during qualifying.


2. "All returned to normal the next lap"

How do we know this for sure? For example - Riccardo in another race (or maybe it was Baku) said that he spent a few laps charging the ES/saving fuel for a few laps each time he wanted to attack. For him, there was no automatic reset to full SoC each lap, like you implied there was with Max. If we had telemetry, we could easily know the answer, but if we look at Honda's telemetry in the Honda PU thread, we can see exactly how the PU works.

[apexcontrol]

Ok, let’s take a step back and try to find a convergent point on the interpretations of the ERS rules.
Let us for example except that other than when braking the “K” can also harvest under engine power, and that the unlimited flow from “H” to “K” can be delivered on to the crankshaft. Also (of which is a fact as per the rules) the “H” flow to “ES” is unlimited. Now when Verstappen was defending and he radioed his pits saying he had no power to deploy, the prompt answer from his pit was (you used it all). It is important to note that Verstappen’s car had no technical problems, neither with any of the ERS component. So why was it that he ran out of electric power deployment for that lap, and all returned to normal on the next lap?

I think their are a couple of assumptions you have made here:

1. When Max "radioed his pits saying he had no power to deploy", your assumption is that the SOC of his ES was at maximum, but he had to wait until the next lap to reset his 4MJ/lap allotment.

--> Was the SOC really at the maximum, or did Max simply use all of the excess energy (think "overtake mode") at that time? Remember, the PU maps are more or less automated, so the only effect the driver has on the PU usage/SOC is driving style, engine map/overtake mode/qualifying mode/"boost" button. Other than that, the PU should be in self sustaining mode, where the SOC is similar at the finish of each lap. It seems clear that Max used all the extra "power" from whatever mode he was in. I say "power" because it may have been fuel (ICE -> _H -> _K) or ES->_K that was the constraint. The _H could have recharged the ES, but that would have required "extra" fuel, and the team may have been saying "Max, you don't have any extra fuel to recharge, so you'll have to wait for the normal map to bring you to maximum SOC".

Think of it this way: each manufacturer has an optimum map for each track. That map will allow the best lap time for the entirety of the race without totally draining the ES and without using all fuel too early. In addition, there are more powerful modes - call them "overtake" or "party mode" that can be used to defend position (as in Max's case) or catch up quickly, but those modes have limited duration. After they are exhausted, more harvesting than normal must take place to recharge them. It might take a slow(er) lap, or it might take 5 slow(er) laps to recharge the party mode. These modes just don't get reset after you cross the start/finish line. It's the same reason Mercedes can't do 5 party mode laps in a row during qualifying.


2. "All returned to normal the next lap"

How do we know this for sure? For example - Riccardo in another race (or maybe it was Baku) said that he spent a few laps charging the ES/saving fuel for a few laps each time he wanted to attack. For him, there was no automatic reset to full SoC each lap, like you implied there was with Max. If we had telemetry, we could easily know the answer, but if we look at Honda's telemetry in the Honda PU thread, we can see exactly how the PU works.

i think stivale is to fixed @ ES and some regulations of power deployment of it.
i think the ES is somewhat the same for all the teams because of heavy regulations.

the MGU-H is not heavy regulated in fact there almost no rules. so there are much gains.
there is much power to gain when you have much fuel to spend.....and when you have alot of slowlaps (sc)

well you dont need 100% efficiency from the PU anymore. when there is a sprint race just crank everything up to the max..... and even the MGU-H will create much power.

[henry]

Excellent post @cheeRS. Sums up the situation nicely.

[apexcontrol]

Excellent post @cheeRS. Sums up the situation nicely.

i can not understand, when the diagram of the fuel flow and the regulations are so clear, that stiv cant not see where the power development is coming from

[saviour stivala]

The argument’s involving me in this page discussion revolved about the interpretations of the ERS harvesting and deployment rules, the ES size/capacity and charge/discharge was also pushed in.
My interpretation of the ERS harvesting and deployment rules were that harvesting is done under braking capturing energy that would otherwise goes to waste. While others were interpreting the rules saying that harvesting is also done under engine power. My interpretation of the deployment rules were that no matter what is thrown at the MGU-K, it is only permitted to deploy 161BHP for 33.33 seconds per lap. While others interpretation of the deployment rules were that as flow from “H” to “K” is unlimited, “K” is not limited in what it can deploy.
After all having been said, including some which shouldn’t have been said. I still stands with all I said, my opinion/interpretations of the ERS rules.

[apexcontrol]

The argument’s involving me in this page discussion revolved about the interpretations of the ERS harvesting and deployment rules, the ES size/capacity and charge/discharge was also pushed in.
My interpretation of the ERS harvesting and deployment rules were that harvesting is done under braking capturing energy that would otherwise goes to waste. While others were interpreting the rules saying that harvesting is also done under engine power. My interpretation of the deployment rules were that no matter what is thrown at the MGU-K, it is only permitted to deploy 161BHP for 33.33 seconds per lap. While others interpretation of the deployment rules were that as flow from “H” to “K” is unlimited, “K” is not limited in what it can deploy.
After all having been said, including some which shouldn’t have been said. I still stands with all I said, my opinion/interpretations of the ERS rules.

no more then 161hp/120kw maybe deployed to the crank that is true.....but the 161hp/120kw is the max number of power generated by MGU-K at one time to the crank but it will not tell you how much energy you have to power the MGU-K,

you need actual energy like kWh/megajoules unit of energy to power the MGU-K
so...

so yes the MGU-H has no limit on making those kWh/megajoules units of energy and there is no limit on sending those to the MGU-K

[henry]

The argument’s involving me in this page discussion revolved about the interpretations of the ERS harvesting and deployment rules, the ES size/capacity and charge/discharge was also pushed in.
My interpretation of the ERS harvesting and deployment rules were that harvesting is done under braking capturing energy that would otherwise goes to waste. While others were interpreting the rules saying that harvesting is also done under engine power. My interpretation of the deployment rules were that no matter what is thrown at the MGU-K, it is only permitted to deploy 161BHP for 33.33 seconds per lap. While others interpretation of the deployment rules were that as flow from “H” to “K” is unlimited, “K” is not limited in what it can deploy.
After all having been said, including some which shouldn’t have been said. I still stands with all I said, my opinion/interpretations of the ERS rules.

That’s great. Shall we all just leave it there then? Seems like the wise thing to do.

[apexcontrol]

The argument’s involving me in this page discussion revolved about the interpretations of the ERS harvesting and deployment rules, the ES size/capacity and charge/discharge was also pushed in.
My interpretation of the ERS harvesting and deployment rules were that harvesting is done under braking capturing energy that would otherwise goes to waste. While others were interpreting the rules saying that harvesting is also done under engine power. My interpretation of the deployment rules were that no matter what is thrown at the MGU-K, it is only permitted to deploy 161BHP for 33.33 seconds per lap. While others interpretation of the deployment rules were that as flow from “H” to “K” is unlimited, “K” is not limited in what it can deploy.
After all having been said, including some which shouldn’t have been said. I still stands with all I said, my opinion/interpretations of the ERS rules.

i do not think you understand the meaning of power and the consumption of power. hbp/kw/joules/kwh
i hope a mod will send you a link and explain. because you should know.

[saviour stivala]

cheeRS. When Verstappen radioed that he had no power to deploy, and was told he used it all, it meant that he used all the rules allowed to be used over the lap.
A driver charging the ES and saving fuel over a few laps so as to be able to attack, first it means that regardless the unlimited flow from “H” to ES, the ES was not fully charged and secondly the saving of the fuel means that the attack was meant to be made with “free load mode/max power output possible” which means the ICE at full fueling flow allowed, with waste gates open, and electric supercharging mode. The other stuff which is too numerous sounds more like stretching and pulling the subject like a rubber band, but was still good because it looked like it made Henry a shade happier.

[saviour stivala]

The argument’s involving me in this page discussion revolved about the interpretations of the ERS harvesting and deployment rules, the ES size/capacity and charge/discharge was also pushed in.
My interpretation of the ERS harvesting and deployment rules were that harvesting is done under braking capturing energy that would otherwise goes to waste. While others were interpreting the rules saying that harvesting is also done under engine power. My interpretation of the deployment rules were that no matter what is thrown at the MGU-K, it is only permitted to deploy 161BHP for 33.33 seconds per lap. While others interpretation of the deployment rules were that as flow from “H” to “K” is unlimited, “K” is not limited in what it can deploy.
After all having been said, including some which shouldn’t have been said. I still stands with all I said, my opinion/interpretations of the ERS rules.

That’s great. Shall we all just leave it there then? Seems like the wise thing to do.

Agree, it seems like the wise thing to do, and happy to comply. also thanks for an enjoyable descussion.