Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[63l8qrrfy6]

well since you ask .....

the designers have free choice of cable c.s.area
so the cable losses will be whatever the designers regard as acceptable - not directly driven by current

there's other 2 battery theories around (Red Rock Mutley's)

Well.. they do but they don't really.
Since the skin effect losses are high at high frequency there isn't much point in having few wires with large diameters..

[sosic2121]

well since you ask .....

the designers have free choice of cable c.s.area
so the cable losses will be whatever the designers regard as acceptable - not directly driven by current

there's other 2 battery theories around (Red Rock Mutley's)

Remember, this is F1 we're taking about.
Every gram is shaved off.
In 1999 spark plug weight was "huge" 25.9g
Couple of years later it was "acceptable" 10.7g
I don't think thicker cables are really an option.

Thank you for your comment!!

[Muniix]

No. The 33.33s was a simplification/error made by the press early in 2014. 33.33s of 120kw is 4MJ. Only, we already established they are able to output more than 4MJ across a lap (although more of a Q lap than anything else).

You are correct to state the peak power output on the crankshaft is limited. However, how long you are allowed to deploy the 120kw is unlimited. Take a hypothetical lap where you are 50s on throttle. If you are able to, you are effectively allowed to deploy 120kw those whole 50s.

in my opinion anybody claiming that they are able to output more than 4MJ per lap is out of order. I fully understand your explanation and reasoning and thanks for your troubles, but I don't agree. and also what we are talking about has nothing to do with qualifying modes. this just to eliminate that from the discussion.

Nothing restricts the MGU-k to 4MJ per lap, and so it's not out of order, someone else is.
Unlimited pathways to MGU-k from MGU-h, so you can inject fuel post TDC into HR40-70 increasing exhaust enthalpy driving MGU-h -> MGU-k an unlimited pathway.

[Muniix]

So now we have something else added to the “Honda harvests even under power” of which I said it was legal/permitted, as evidenced and done in Hungary by Vandoorne. What was added now is that Honda harvests 3MJ through the MGU-K and this on black on white. How Honda can or is allowed to harvest 1MJ more than is permitted by the MGU-K and gets it post the FIA flow measuring sensor is beyond me. I am saying this because when I look at the FIA energy flow chart the charts show flow from engine to MGU-K and from MGU-K to engine being stated as limited, and as I also understand it, it is because this flow is limited that a flow measuring sensor is mandated at the MGU-K.
Somebody mentioned “clipping”. Clipping happens when all the energy in the ES is used-up and the MGU-H clicks-in (comes on-line). Those that their turbo/MGU-H combination allows the MGU-H to click-in/comes on-line, their MGU-H will be rapidly re-charging the ES, those that their turbo/MGU-H combination does not allow this, they will normally have to revert to harvesting by the MGU-K under power/by burning fuel,

They clearly stated of the 3MJ that 2MG went into the ES and the other 1MJ to the MGU-k.
and
'Clipping' is purely running out of energy from the ES. It does not having anything to do with MGU-h 'clicking' in.
I was fatigued as hell and I understood it on first read, I've never meet anyone who interprets information wrong and creates a new version of facts.

[Muniix]

"The energy from K to H is unlimited" Yes that is what the flow chart shows, the flow chart also shows that engine to K as limited, as well as K to engine as limited. the K operates as a motor by being supplied either from ES or H, but the K operates as a generator by the engine (is powered/rotated by crankshaft) and it operates this way when the brake pedal is pressed.

They use the MGU-k to operate the engine in higher efficiency either by increasing load on crankshaft sending power to ES or driving crankshaft of they have the energy from MGU-h or ES.
Brake pedal has nothing to do with it. Powertrain Software developers do know what they're doing, we are a smart bunch.

[saviour stivala]

"The energy from K to H is unlimited" Yes that is what the flow chart shows, the flow chart also shows that engine to K as limited, as well as K to engine as limited. the K operates as a motor by being supplied either from ES or H, but the K operates as a generator by the engine (is powered/rotated by crankshaft) and it operates this way when the brake pedal is pressed.

They use the MGU-k to operate the engine in higher efficiency either by increasing load on crankshaft sending power to ES or driving crankshaft of they have the energy from MGU-h or ES.
Brake pedal has nothing to do with it. Powertrain Software developers do know what they're doing, we are a smart bunch.

At what times other than under braking does the mgu-k acts as a generator?

[hurril]

"The energy from K to H is unlimited" Yes that is what the flow chart shows, the flow chart also shows that engine to K as limited, as well as K to engine as limited. the K operates as a motor by being supplied either from ES or H, but the K operates as a generator by the engine (is powered/rotated by crankshaft) and it operates this way when the brake pedal is pressed.

They use the MGU-k to operate the engine in higher efficiency either by increasing load on crankshaft sending power to ES or driving crankshaft of they have the energy from MGU-h or ES.
Brake pedal has nothing to do with it. Powertrain Software developers do know what they're doing, we are a smart bunch.

At what times other than under braking does the mgu-k acts as a generator?

They can do that basically whenever.

[stevesingo]

"The energy from K to H is unlimited" Yes that is what the flow chart shows, the flow chart also shows that engine to K as limited, as well as K to engine as limited. the K operates as a motor by being supplied either from ES or H, but the K operates as a generator by the engine (is powered/rotated by crankshaft) and it operates this way when the brake pedal is pressed.

They use the MGU-k to operate the engine in higher efficiency either by increasing load on crankshaft sending power to ES or driving crankshaft of they have the energy from MGU-h or ES.
Brake pedal has nothing to do with it. Powertrain Software developers do know what they're doing, we are a smart bunch.

At what times other than under braking does the mgu-k acts as a generator?

I'm not a power train engineer, but I would hazard a guess that any time a less that 100% torque demand from the driver. The ICE will have a BSFC map as any ICE does. Any time you can add load to the ICE to bring the ICE to the optimum efficiency then you would want to do so. This load can be added to by the MGU-K. Some energy can go to the ES some can go direct to the HGU-H further increasing ICE efficiency by reducing backpressure.

[subcritical71]

At what times other than under braking does the mgu-k acts as a generator?

They can do that basically whenever.

To add to hurril, you can see it quite clearly on some camera shots for example on longer straights where the Rain Light will sometimes flash much earlier than the braking zone. The 'Lift and coast' conditions are essentially MGU-K generating scenarios. In 2014, Charlie Whiting clarified that the rain light flashes;

‘Lift and coast’

If the torque management system on the car decides to go into a fuel-save mode, the rear light will flash for a second to warn any driver behind. The thresholds are configurable but currently set for a car above 95 per cent throttle for more than a second, travelling faster than 180kph, that experiences a torque reduction of 120kW or more.

The warning system has been created because these events are controlled by the electronics rather than by the driver. If the driver decides to back off early then the situation is as it always has been. He has a responsibility to ensure another car is not close behind him. It’s as simple as that. One would normally expect the driver to check that it’s OK to back off. The warning light is there for situations not controlled by the driver.

edit: I should have said the 'lift and coast' scenario causes the lights to flash at the beginning of a possible generating scenario (as the MGU-K is going from 120kW deployment to neutral, or no deployment).

[sosic2121]

I should have said the 'lift and coast' scenario causes the lights to flash at the beginning of a possible generating scenario (as the MGU-K is going from 120kW deployment to neutral, or no deployment).

IMO K should never be neutral. In order to minimise a lap time, it should always either deploy or harvest.

[Nonserviam85]

"The energy from K to H is unlimited" Yes that is what the flow chart shows, the flow chart also shows that engine to K as limited, as well as K to engine as limited. the K operates as a motor by being supplied either from ES or H, but the K operates as a generator by the engine (is powered/rotated by crankshaft) and it operates this way when the brake pedal is pressed.

They use the MGU-k to operate the engine in higher efficiency either by increasing load on crankshaft sending power to ES or driving crankshaft of they have the energy from MGU-h or ES.
Brake pedal has nothing to do with it. Powertrain Software developers do know what they're doing, we are a smart bunch.

At what times other than under braking does the mgu-k acts as a generator?

Any instance the Counter Electromotive Force produced by the MGU-K is higher than the incoming Voltage from the battery.

[henry]

I should have said the 'lift and coast' scenario causes the lights to flash at the beginning of a possible generating scenario (as the MGU-K is going from 120kW deployment to neutral, or no deployment).

IMO K should never be neutral. In order to minimise a lap time, it should always either deploy or harvest.

In general I agree with you. However when fuel saving I think they might do pure lift and coast. No power to the wheels, simply allowing drag to slow the car.

In the early days of the formula they probably did much more of this, Honda certainly needed to, now it’s probably by choice. Fuel light and lift and coast where necessary. When defending a position using more fuel at the beginning of the straight and coasting at the end is probably better than deploying a little less fuel for the whole of the straight.

Only my opinion obviously

[PhillipM]

You're better off lifting later and harvesting as well in that case, energy lost to drag is wasted.

[Tommy Cookers]

At what times other than under braking does the mgu-k acts as a generator?

Any instance the Counter Electromotive Force produced by the MGU-K is higher than the incoming Voltage from the battery.

well yes ....
the 'incoming' voltage wave magnitude will be ideally varied so that the K can supply/draw any torque at any rpm (within limits)
not just +- 120 kW amountsworth of torque
this will be a waveform in shape ideally matched to the field flux
there will be generated current output to the DC line when the 'CU' onboard capacitor voltage exceeds the ES voltage

the K is a PM 'electronically commutated' machine or a PM synchronous machine - the H is a PM synchronous machine
the machines are under continuous closed-loop(s) velocity (or velocity + ano) control between the machine and its CU
the demand signal to the CU is continuously produced by the PU torque demand : torque output map
(btw what the FIA calls the CU is in the real usually called something else)

[saviour stivala]

So as regards the MJU-K harvesting now I have it added in black on white that not only it can harvest when braking but also when not braking, and that is in additions to also being able to harvest more than 2MJ per lap.