Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dialtone wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:42 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:27 am
Anti-stall will not only not hinder revers being selected, but if anything it will facilitate reverse being selected as the clutch will be ‘open’ while anti-stall is on, but there is another function when anti-stall kicks-in that is not being considered. That is the anti-stall program will manipulate throttle (takes over throttle) to normally up engine revs above the point of engine stalling. When that happens, unless the driver deactivates anti-stall by manually activating the clutch paddle, the driver has no control on throttle pedal. (Leclerc to pits - ‘’I CANNOT GO ON THROTTLE’’. Which the usual FERRARI lover changed to ‘’I CANNOT GO OFF THROTTLE’’.
You are probably more experienced than me in how the Ferrari engine works, not that hard, however I'll go back to what happened to Perez in quali in canada. It's visible on his onboard on F1TV at minute 35.

Right after the crash he tries to go in reverse 2 times (his race engineer asks him "Can you go in reverse?"), and both times as soon as he engages the gear and reverses the car drops the reverse gear without the wheels attempting any movement back. Perez then asks "Why isn't it going through?", his race engineer tells him: "Press and hold reverse... Select 1st and then back to Neutral... Select 1st gear, keep the clutch held, then Neutral then press and hold reverse" and now you can see him trying to reverse and the front wheels start moving backwards, but he's stuck anyway.

Perez engine was also in anti stall mode, after all he had just crashed and his procedure wasn't to just hold and release the clutch (in fact his race engineer made a mistake on the reverse procedure by not telling him to hold the clutch first), his reverse didn't get into gear with the anti-stall and so on. The whole operation to even attempt to reverse took 1 minute for Perez who was certainly sitting there more calm than Leclerc was, it wasn't going to work in the race to take 1 minute to get the car off the barrier for Leclerc.
Perez situation was totally different from that of Leclerc as Perez car was 'stuck' in the barriers while Leclerc's was not (very little damage). I have no doubt that Perez car was also in anti-stall mode. Because Perez car was stuck in barriers in such a way that engine power could not get the car unstuck, each time he tried to revers the anti-stall kicked back in (revers rejected), 'rejected', because one of the two things anti-stall does is open clutch + take over throttle. to prevent engine stall. What you say his engineer was telling him certainly sounds complicated, as, as far as I know rules mandate that (2022 - anti-stall - 'anybody that have the facility' anti-stall must be capable to keep the clutch open for 15 seconds, with deactivation by the driver manually having to pulling the clutch paddle (neutralizing anti-stall). This 'anti-stall neutralizing has to be done before selecting a forward or revers gear and also before trying to manipulate (increase) throttle. Something which although Binotto (in the case of Leclerc) didn't go into, I suspect that was the case that caused the F1-75 ECU confused to such a point that by the time Leclerc shut-off and restarted his engine, the powertrain fail-safe mode (isolation of drive train from engine) had kicked in.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Have left out – All anti-stall systems in use functions in the same exact way and according to rules have to be deactivated in the same way.

dialtone
dialtone
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:31 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:40 pm
dialtone wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:42 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:27 am
Anti-stall will not only not hinder revers being selected, but if anything it will facilitate reverse being selected as the clutch will be ‘open’ while anti-stall is on, but there is another function when anti-stall kicks-in that is not being considered. That is the anti-stall program will manipulate throttle (takes over throttle) to normally up engine revs above the point of engine stalling. When that happens, unless the driver deactivates anti-stall by manually activating the clutch paddle, the driver has no control on throttle pedal. (Leclerc to pits - ‘’I CANNOT GO ON THROTTLE’’. Which the usual FERRARI lover changed to ‘’I CANNOT GO OFF THROTTLE’’.
You are probably more experienced than me in how the Ferrari engine works, not that hard, however I'll go back to what happened to Perez in quali in canada. It's visible on his onboard on F1TV at minute 35.

Right after the crash he tries to go in reverse 2 times (his race engineer asks him "Can you go in reverse?"), and both times as soon as he engages the gear and reverses the car drops the reverse gear without the wheels attempting any movement back. Perez then asks "Why isn't it going through?", his race engineer tells him: "Press and hold reverse... Select 1st and then back to Neutral... Select 1st gear, keep the clutch held, then Neutral then press and hold reverse" and now you can see him trying to reverse and the front wheels start moving backwards, but he's stuck anyway.

Perez engine was also in anti stall mode, after all he had just crashed and his procedure wasn't to just hold and release the clutch (in fact his race engineer made a mistake on the reverse procedure by not telling him to hold the clutch first), his reverse didn't get into gear with the anti-stall and so on. The whole operation to even attempt to reverse took 1 minute for Perez who was certainly sitting there more calm than Leclerc was, it wasn't going to work in the race to take 1 minute to get the car off the barrier for Leclerc.
Perez situation was totally different from that of Leclerc as Perez car was 'stuck' in the barriers while Leclerc's was not (very little damage). I have no doubt that Perez car was also in anti-stall mode. Because Perez car was stuck in barriers in such a way that engine power could not get the car unstuck, each time he tried to revers the anti-stall kicked back in (revers rejected), 'rejected', because one of the two things anti-stall does is open clutch + take over throttle. to prevent engine stall. What you say his engineer was telling him certainly sounds complicated, as, as far as I know rules mandate that (2022 - anti-stall - 'anybody that have the facility' anti-stall must be capable to keep the clutch open for 15 seconds, with deactivation by the driver manually having to pulling the clutch paddle (neutralizing anti-stall). This 'anti-stall neutralizing has to be done before selecting a forward or revers gear and also before trying to manipulate (increase) throttle. Something which although Binotto (in the case of Leclerc) didn't go into, I suspect that was the case that caused the F1-75 ECU confused to such a point that by the time Leclerc shut-off and restarted his engine, the powertrain fail-safe mode (isolation of drive train from engine) had kicked in.
You wrote a lot but I'm not sure I can spot where you disagree with what I wrote.

Checo procedure for getting out of anti stall wasn't to just hold the clutch, his wheels weren't spinning, it wasn't because he tried and it was stuck and the gear rejected, and this continued until he switched the anti-stall off and only then his wheels moved.

Your previous claim was that the rear gear didn't need to get off of anti-stall, which is directly countered by what Checo was going through.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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As I have tried to explain, the ‘mandated by the rules’ standard procedure to ‘get-out’ of anti-stall is for the driver to just pull on the clutch paddle. If the driver does not, anti-stall is mandated by the rules to be capable to hold the clutch ‘open’ for at least 15 seconds. In the heat of the moment many a driver that is normally drilled about the care systems can easily make mistakes. Will repeat that in the case of Perez who’s car was stuck in the barriers such that the engine power was not capable to free the car, each time he tried to revers anti-stall kicked in to prevent the engine from stalling.

dialtone
dialtone
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:15 pm
As I have tried to explain, the ‘mandated by the rules’ standard procedure to ‘get-out’ of anti-stall is for the driver to just pull on the clutch paddle. If the driver does not, anti-stall is mandated by the rules to be capable to hold the clutch ‘open’ for at least 15 seconds. In the heat of the moment many a driver that is normally drilled about the care systems can easily make mistakes. Will repeat that in the case of Perez who’s car was stuck in the barriers such that the engine power was not capable to free the car, each time he tried to revers anti-stall kicked in to prevent the engine from stalling.
Do you have references to those mandated rules? Because it's literally not what happened to Perez so... I want to believe you but at the same time my eyes see something else.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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There is always a chance that I am mistaken, but all you have to do is refer to FIA FI technical regulations 2022. When I find the time I will myself check again.

dialtone
dialtone
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Here's the video of Perez:

https://streamja.com/be4q6

* 2s in the video: anti-stall kicks in (wheel lights blinking)
* 3s in the video: crash
* 7s in reverse button clicked: still neutral (no movement in the tires)
* 17s in reverse button clicked again: on wheel still N very visible (still no movement in the tires)
* starts to click random buttons while talking with race engineer and asking why it's not going through
* 30s in starts to apply procedure from the engineer, forgets to hold clutch, still Neutral
* 52s switch to 1st, press R, still N
* 58s finally R is engaged
* 64s wheels move but it's stuck so doesn't move much towards anything

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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2021/2022 5.22 - 'if the car is equipped with a stall preventing system, and in order to avoid the possibility of a car involved in an accident being left with engine running, all such systems must be configured to stop the engine no more then ten seconds after activation, the sole purpose of such system is to prevent the engine stalling when driver loses control of the car''. ''if the car is in second gear or above when the system (anti-stall) is activated multi gear changes may be made to either first gear or neutral. under all other circumstances the clutch alone may be activated'. "each time such system (anti-stall) is activated the clutch must be fully disengaged and must remain so until the driver de-activate the system by manually operating the clutch with a request greater than 95% of total available travel of the driver clutch actuation device''.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dialtone wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:43 pm
Here's the video of Perez:

https://streamja.com/be4q6

* 2s in the video: anti-stall kicks in (wheel lights blinking)
* 3s in the video: crash
* 7s in reverse button clicked: still neutral (no movement in the tires)
* 17s in reverse button clicked again: on wheel still N very visible (still no movement in the tires)
* starts to click random buttons while talking with race engineer and asking why it's not going through
* 30s in starts to apply procedure from the engineer, forgets to hold clutch, still Neutral
* 52s switch to 1st, press R, still N
* 58s finally R is engaged
* 64s wheels move but it's stuck so doesn't move much towards anything
Thanks for the Perez accident video. ''at 17 seconds ---- ''starts to click random buttons'' that is what I meant when I said that even drivers drilled on systems used can easily do mistakes in heat of accident, and in so doing probably pushes the ECU into activating power train fail safe mode if used that is.
The only thing not mentioned is the driver having pulled the clutch paddle the mandated travel to first and before doing anything else de-activate anti-stall. unless he did revers would be ineffective as the system would hold the clutch open. thereafter, when he managed to de-activate and try to revers, with the engine not being able to pull the car out of the barriers, each time he tried anti-stall kicked in to prevent engine stalling.

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aleks_ader
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I would imagine teams could easily made into screen step by step tutorial how to engage R gear. :D
No engineer mistake or mispronouncing etc.
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna

Xwang
Xwang
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Question for everyone.
In theory could it be possible to just use the kers to reverse by just turning it in the opposite direction, so avoiding to change gears and so on? Does the KERS have enough O RPM torque?
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Xwang wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:51 pm
Question for everyone.
In theory could it be possible to just use the kers to reverse by just turning it in the opposite direction, so avoiding to change gears and so on? Does the KERS have enough O RPM torque?
ERS-K has a fixed gearing to the crankshaft, which means No.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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And besides all that, if it was possible it (ERS-K) would then be rotating the engine (crankshaft) anti-clockwise, and not to forget that for the car to move backwards or forward first gear or revers gear would still have to be engaged. If anti-stall kicks-in and the car comes to a stop, the process of getting the car going again forward or backwards is very simple, that is unless the car is beached, all the driver have to do is de-activate anti-stall by just pull on the clutch paddle, select first gear or revers and move off.

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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In all its glory
Image

Image

Image
via @NicolasF1i

mzso
mzso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Powerful, but explodes in 2-3 races. Can someone spot now what sort of turbo it has?