Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
wuzak
wuzak
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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sucof wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:03 pm
Are there anything in the regs against using a heatpump?
Even with a very light and simple setup, one could cool the air more, gaining horsepowers...
And as we know heatpupms are very efficient. Maybe the intercooler could be a mix of regular heat transfer and heatpump... ?
5.24.2 Cooling systems: The cooling systems of the power unit, including that of the air destined for combustion, must not intentionally make use of the latent heat of vaporisation of any fluid with the exception of fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine as described in Article 5.11.3.

Heat pumps, as I understand it, use the latent heat of vaporisation to achieve cooling.

sucof
sucof
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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wuzak wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:45 pm
sucof wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:03 pm
Are there anything in the regs against using a heatpump?
Even with a very light and simple setup, one could cool the air more, gaining horsepowers...
And as we know heatpupms are very efficient. Maybe the intercooler could be a mix of regular heat transfer and heatpump... ?
5.24.2 Cooling systems: The cooling systems of the power unit, including that of the air destined for combustion, must not intentionally make use of the latent heat of vaporisation of any fluid with the exception of fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine as described in Article 5.11.3.

Heat pumps, as I understand it, use the latent heat of vaporisation to achieve cooling.
Thanks for the clarification. I guess this includes heat pumps, or even vaporizing water.

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Probably doesn't rule out the use of Peltier devices.
je suis charlie

mzso
mzso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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wuzak wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:45 pm
5.24.2 Cooling systems: The cooling systems of the power unit, including that of the air destined for combustion, must not intentionally make use of the latent heat of vaporisation of any fluid with the exception of fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine as described in Article 5.11.3.

Heat pumps, as I understand it, use the latent heat of vaporisation to achieve cooling.
Why do they preemtively ban everything interesting?

mzso
mzso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Is Leclerc getting the final specification MGU this weekend?

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Subtitles available in any language.
According to this expose they have maintained the coolant temperature of 130C with oil at 220C.
A novel piston cooling design (new for me anyway).
They discuss the benefits of the ethanol content which is huge IMO for knock resistance. Worth much equine effect.
The split turbo is shown but dumb as I am I cannot work out the air ingress path of the compressor (please dont hesitate to show a dude)

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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There is something very wrong with that model. There is no intercooler anywhere :wtf:

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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AR3-GP wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:32 am
There is something very wrong with that model. There is no intercooler anywhere :wtf:
I think it was shown early in the video with it positioned high up in the vee

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Cannot understand how some people on here waste their time basing their arguments on just a computer rendering of an engine and not on actual photos an engine such as those by Nicolas Carpenters which shows the oil tank high up front of engine and (reaction engine type) intercooler low down front of engine with two feed outlets up and over to planum.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Location: Australia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:47 am
Cannot understand how some people on here waste their time basing their arguments on just a computer rendering of an engine and not on actual photos an engine such as those by Nicolas Carpenters which shows the oil tank high up front of engine and (reaction engine type) intercooler low down front of engine with two feed outlets up and over to planum.
As you have trouble understanding:
It wasnt an argument, it was presenting some new information that I hoped would raise some constructive, ie, constructive discussion hopefully avoiding the reprimands that are both needless and pointless. And I do not waste my time, not one second of it.
It was some new information that was of interest to me, namely the ethanol effect, the coolant and oil temperatures and the novel piston cooling.
The position of the intercooler was raised by someone else and inconsequential to me, as long as one exists even in a 1D world and the output temperature would be of interest but the hunt continues for that...
The video format is questionable but the points are not.
Is that clear enough for you?
And by the way those photos by Nicolas Carpenters are fantastic, but I cannot work certain things out from them, it seems to be a gift some have that I dont.
So, I didnt see any comment on the air ingress path for the compressor for example??

I intensely dislike the felt need to be personal in here or a policing attitude, the second half of your post would have sufficed in a much more civil way.

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vorticism
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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mzso wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:16 pm
wuzak wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:45 pm
5.24.2 Cooling systems: The cooling systems of the power unit, including that of the air destined for combustion, must not intentionally make use of the latent heat of vaporisation of any fluid with the exception of fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine as described in Article 5.11.3.

Heat pumps, as I understand it, use the latent heat of vaporisation to achieve cooling.
Why do they preemtively ban everything interesting?
If it was legal I imagine they could make a very small intercooler using refrigerant, great for packaging if not too heavy or voluminous on the hot loop side, although likely no one would want to develop such a piece of hardware. Easier and cheaper to use established water or air intercoolers. It also might allow systems which could meter out LN or LHe, or at least they might try to shovel dry ices into the sidepods pre race or during pit stops. Cryogenic pit stops, that would have been a sight. I've thought of it before--cars without radiators just a tank of LN which forces pit stops. Better for aero, maybe practical only for quali. Though we'd get to see something like small quali-spec sidepods. We are the niche fans who want to see things which intrigue us, but the teams are businesses steered primarily by finances and the FIA backs them on this and ultimately they only need to entertain casual observers and ad men.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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johnny comelately wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:14 am
... benefits of the ethanol content which is huge IMO for knock resistance.
why/how ?
the engine is anyway designed to behave in ways hitherto impossible

btw does Joe Citizen still use injector cleaning fuel additive ? (now we all use eg E10 fuel)

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:49 pm
johnny comelately wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:14 am
... benefits of the ethanol content which is huge IMO for knock resistance.
why/how ?
the engine is anyway designed to behave in ways hitherto impossible

btw does Joe Citizen still use injector cleaning fuel additive ? (now we all use eg E10 fuel)
I'm surprised at your questioning tommy because you would know the answer with your experience. hoping youre not angling at another octane talk...
Nonetheless it is an interesting question that I will attempt in my capacity as a broken assed ex race mechanic, racer, autodidactic CAD and CAM journeyman, toolmaker, tuner, designer-in-the-dark, non-engineer.
there are two answer methods, one from practical experience and one scientific (pseudo in my case)
Firstly in this case the assumption is the blending produces an homogenous molecular compound, that is predictable, which it has to be.
From experience with methanol and with some ethanol comparison runs on a dyno, as the blend percentage increases the knock reduces, wonderful news indeed.
Generally the advance reduces and from that the power comes with a commensurate increase of compression...all other things being equal.
But being from the olden days the mixture always ends up being rich to finish a race.
This typifies the culture of tuning moving from the suck it and see in the 80's to the scientific approach. Being non tribal at this transition is important. It is exemplified by the Red Bull teams success by using data and experience on the chassis side, Honda maintains the data method which eventually succeeded.
During the war the decions were largely pragmatic/practical with great scientific contributions feeding that in power and armanent development.
But I digress.
The second reason may be the nature of the molecular bonds (and this is where the maxim "a little knowledge is dangerous" may be proven correct)
Not knowing the molecular structure of the blend but assuming it is a branched type, that this produces a more stable combustion. Stability reduces knock. Apparently it is a result of the intramolecular bond types. The intermolecualr bonds of the blend on the other hand produce the volatility and other associated characteristics.
This is slightly more challenging to light the wick but TJI ensures the mix sucumbs.
But the heat/enthalpy of combustion is higher and safer re knock.
The oxygen molecule in ethanol usually means more free power which is the case in a normal rich mixture engine but in this , as you say "impossible" scenario with excess air/oxygen I dont know how that plays out...anyone??
With the mandated flow rates and the 10% ethanol is where they lost power because normally they would richen the flow rate, so how they recovered that loss I dont know. Methinks it has been by refining the peripheral matters like heat containment via coatings etc.
The other matter is the latent heat characteristics of alcohols which do indeed produce a cooler situation as alluded to by Godlamereso (spelling) member here

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Location: Australia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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johnny comelately wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:45 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:49 pm
johnny comelately wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:14 am
... benefits of the ethanol content which is huge IMO for knock resistance.
why/how ?
the engine is anyway designed to behave in ways hitherto impossible

btw does Joe Citizen still use injector cleaning fuel additive ? (now we all use eg E10 fuel)
I'm surprised at your questioning tommy because you would know the answer with your experience. hoping youre not angling at another octane talk...
Nonetheless it is an interesting question that I will attempt in my capacity as a broken assed ex race mechanic, racer, autodidactic CAD and CAM journeyman, toolmaker, tuner, designer-in-the-dark, non-engineer.
there are two answer methods, one from practical experience and one scientific (pseudo in my case)
Firstly in this case the assumption is the blending produces an homogenous molecular compound, that is predictable, which it has to be.
From experience with methanol and with some ethanol comparison runs on a dyno, as the blend percentage increases the knock reduces, wonderful news indeed.
Generally the advance reduces and from that the power comes with a commensurate increase of compression...all other things being equal.
But being from the olden days the mixture always ends up being rich to finish a race.
This typifies the culture of tuning moving from the suck it and see in the 80's to the scientific approach. Being non tribal at this transition is important. It is exemplified by the Red Bull teams success by using data and experience on the chassis side, Honda maintains the data method which eventually succeeded.
During the war the decions were largely pragmatic/practical with great scientific contributions feeding that in power and armanent development.
But I digress.
The second reason may be the nature of the molecular bonds (and this is where the maxim "a little knowledge is dangerous" may be proven correct)
Not knowing the molecular structure of the blend but assuming it is a branched type, that this produces a more stable combustion. Stability reduces knock. Apparently it is a result of the intramolecular bond types. The intermolecualr bonds of the blend on the other hand produce the volatility and other associated characteristics.
This is slightly more challenging to light the wick but TJI ensures the mix sucumbs.
But the heat/enthalpy of combustion is higher and safer re knock.
The oxygen molecule in ethanol usually means more free power which is the case in a normal rich mixture engine but in this , as you say "impossible" scenario with excess air/oxygen I dont know how that plays out...anyone??
With the mandated flow rates and the 10% ethanol is where they lost power because normally they would richen the flow rate, so how they recovered that loss I dont know. Methinks it has been by refining the peripheral matters like heat containment via coatings etc.
The other matter is the latent heat characteristics of alcohols which do indeed produce a cooler situation as alluded to by Godlamereso (spelling) member here
IMO

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
509
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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johnny comelately wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:45 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:49 pm
johnny comelately wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:14 am
... benefits of the ethanol content which is huge IMO for knock resistance.
why/how ?
the engine is anyway designed to behave in ways hitherto impossible

btw does Joe Citizen still use injector cleaning fuel additive ? (now we all use eg E10 fuel)
I'm surprised at your questioning tommy because you would know the answer with your experience. hoping youre not angling at another octane talk...
Nonetheless it is an interesting question that I will attempt in my capacity as a broken assed ex race mechanic, racer, autodidactic CAD and CAM journeyman, toolmaker, tuner, designer-in-the-dark, non-engineer.
there are two answer methods, one from practical experience and one scientific (pseudo in my case)
Firstly in this case the assumption is the blending produces an homogenous molecular compound, that is predictable, which it has to be.
From experience with methanol and with some ethanol comparison runs on a dyno, as the blend percentage increases the knock reduces, wonderful news indeed.
Generally the advance reduces and from that the power comes with a commensurate increase of compression...all other things being equal.
But being from the olden days the mixture always ends up being rich to finish a race.
This typifies the culture of tuning moving from the suck it and see in the 80's to the scientific approach. Being non tribal at this transition is important. It is exemplified by the Red Bull teams success by using data and experience on the chassis side, Honda maintains the data method which eventually succeeded.
During the war the decions were largely pragmatic/practical with great scientific contributions feeding that in power and armanent development.
But I digress.
The second reason may be the nature of the molecular bonds (and this is where the maxim "a little knowledge is dangerous" may be proven correct)
Not knowing the molecular structure of the blend but assuming it is a branched type, that this produces a more stable combustion. Stability reduces knock. Apparently it is a result of the intramolecular bond types. The intermolecualr bonds of the blend on the other hand produce the volatility and other associated characteristics.
This is slightly more challenging to light the wick but TJI ensures the mix sucumbs.
But the heat/enthalpy of combustion is higher and safer re knock.
The oxygen molecule in ethanol usually means more free power which is the case in a normal rich mixture engine but in this , as you say "impossible" scenario with excess air/oxygen I dont know how that plays out...anyone??
With the mandated flow rates and the 10% ethanol is where they lost power because normally they would richen the flow rate, so how they recovered that loss I dont know. Methinks it has been by refining the peripheral matters like heat containment via coatings etc.
The other matter is the latent heat characteristics of alcohols which do indeed produce a cooler situation as alluded to by Godlamereso (spelling) member here
Mercedes said they recovered the power because they could advance timing more in places that were troubled with knock.
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