Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
DutchPanther
7
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:27 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

HCCI combustion for Ferrari?
How hard can it be? ~Jeremious Clarksonious

Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula
46
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:23 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

DutchPanther wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:45 am
HCCI combustion for Ferrari?
Would violate the rules. The rules state that the combustion must be initiated with a spark from a sparkplug.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
75
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Dr. Acula wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 12:47 pm
DutchPanther wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:45 am
HCCI combustion for Ferrari?
Would violate the rules. The rules state that the combustion must be initiated with a spark from a sparkplug.
spark-assisted compression ignition (SACI)

Sevach
Sevach
927
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:00 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Reportedly Charles will get the "improved reliability" ICE in Austin.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
79
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Dr. Acula wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 12:47 pm
DutchPanther wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:45 am
HCCI combustion for Ferrari?
Would violate the rules. The rules state that the combustion must be initiated with a spark from a sparkplug.

This would mean that knock is illegal. Anyone can trigger a "spark" coincidentally. It's impossible for the FIA to police.


Perhaps the HCCI was involved in the prodigal 2019 PU and for this reason, Ferrari did not want the technical details of the matter in the public. It would explain the concept change for 2020 that saw them fall backwards. Maybe the agreement with the FIA was that they had to revert to spark ignition for 2020 and since they were a year behind the others on that concept, the 2020 PU was poor relatively.

Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula
46
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:23 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 5:44 pm
Dr. Acula wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 12:47 pm
DutchPanther wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:45 am
HCCI combustion for Ferrari?
Would violate the rules. The rules state that the combustion must be initiated with a spark from a sparkplug.

This would mean that knock is illegal. Anyone can trigger a "spark" coincidentally. It's impossible for the FIA to police.
Well the problem of unintentional knock generally solves itself rather quickly...
The rule of course means the regular intentional combustion must be triggered by a spark and it's far from impossible to police. They have knock sensors, which show you when actually combustion happens and they log the ignition timing. That's all you need.

User avatar
Zynerji
108
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Dr. Acula wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:06 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 5:44 pm
Dr. Acula wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 12:47 pm

Would violate the rules. The rules state that the combustion must be initiated with a spark from a sparkplug.

This would mean that knock is illegal. Anyone can trigger a "spark" coincidentally. It's impossible for the FIA to police.
Well the problem of unintentional knock generally solves itself rather quickly...
The rule of course means the regular intentional combustion must be triggered by a spark and it's far from impossible to police. They have knock sensors, which show you when actually combustion happens and they log the ignition timing. That's all you need.
Knock happens post spark.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
79
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Zynerji wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:11 pm
Dr. Acula wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:06 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 5:44 pm



This would mean that knock is illegal. Anyone can trigger a "spark" coincidentally. It's impossible for the FIA to police.
Well the problem of unintentional knock generally solves itself rather quickly...
The rule of course means the regular intentional combustion must be triggered by a spark and it's far from impossible to police. They have knock sensors, which show you when actually combustion happens and they log the ignition timing. That's all you need.
Knock happens post spark.
I don't mean to get semantical about it but I mean any form of pre-ignition (which by definition is not controlled and can occur before or after the spark).

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
79
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Dr. Acula wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:06 pm
Well the problem of unintentional knock generally solves itself rather quickly...
:lol: :lol: fair point.

User avatar
chrisc90
10
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:22 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Zynerji wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:11 pm


Knock happens post spark.
Not necessarily. You could have detonation prior to combustion, or combustion that happens because there is too much cylinder pressure or heat, multiple flame fronts etc.

Your spark is there to control precisely when best to ignite the fuel/air mixture in the cylinder before the piston reaches TDC in normal running mode. This is done in order to get the most power/efficiency from the engine. Igniting your mixture too early or too late can lead to knock or pre-detonation which will also result in a lack of power from a non optimised ignition timing map
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

User avatar
Zynerji
108
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

chrisc90 wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:32 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:11 pm


Knock happens post spark.
Not necessarily. You could have detonation prior to combustion, or combustion that happens because there is too much cylinder pressure or heat, multiple flame fronts etc.

Your spark is there to control precisely when best to ignite the fuel/air mixture in the cylinder before the piston reaches TDC in normal running mode. This is done in order to get the most power/efficiency from the engine. Igniting your mixture too early or too late can lead to knock or pre-detonation which will also result in a lack of power from a non optimised ignition timing map
The way its always been explained to me is that the spark Shockwave will cause multiple ignition sites through the chamber due to high pressures, since this wave travels faster than the flamefront.

I guess if you had no cooling and then were under full load that you could have pre-ignition knock.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
79
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Zynerji wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:36 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:32 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:11 pm


Knock happens post spark.
Not necessarily. You could have detonation prior to combustion, or combustion that happens because there is too much cylinder pressure or heat, multiple flame fronts etc.

Your spark is there to control precisely when best to ignite the fuel/air mixture in the cylinder before the piston reaches TDC in normal running mode. This is done in order to get the most power/efficiency from the engine. Igniting your mixture too early or too late can lead to knock or pre-detonation which will also result in a lack of power from a non optimised ignition timing map
The way its always been explained to me is that the spark Shockwave will cause multiple ignition sites through the chamber due to high pressures, since this wave travels faster than the flamefront.

I guess if you had no cooling and then were under full load that you could have pre-ignition knock.
Apologies for the confusion. As you say, what you refer to is "knock". What I refer to is known colloquially as "pre-ignition", not "knock". The former is not "controlled" per say (unless you were attempting to replicate an HCCI under the cover of a spark ignition engine)

User avatar
F1NAC
143
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:35 pm
Location: CRO

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Sevach wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 7:47 am
Reportedly Charles will get the "improved reliability" ICE in Austin.
i will trust Duchessa who said it will be same ICE as previous ones.


Nugnes is big NO

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
75
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Anyone care to explain how this compressor works.
And if you jump in and say the ChronoTV stuff is nonsense that is ok, just sketch or explain how the real thing works because in the associated photos that end plate does exist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUXiiB7LgHE
Image

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
79
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

johnny comelately wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 11:11 am
Anyone care to explain how this compressor works.
And if you jump in and say the ChronoTV stuff is nonsense that is ok, just sketch or explain how the real thing works because in the associated photos that end plate does exist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUXiiB7LgHE
https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88777 ... vVHsiwMVlc
You will need to translate:
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-fe ... /10397048/


Italian motosport (Nugnes) claims that end plate is an intercooler, not a compressor.