Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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wuzak wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:24 am
johnny comelately wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:40 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:42 am
In electric supercharging mode (when waste-gate/s are open – no backpressure) the ‘H’ is in motor mode and not only not recovering but it is sharing ES power with ‘K’.
How often are the wastegates open?
Hardly at all is my thought.


Thanks for the video link.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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For the MGU-H to drive the turbo to a speed where back pressure would be eliminated the waste-gate/s would have to be fully opened. (free-load-mode - party-mode).

johnny comelately
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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wuzak wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:24 am
johnny comelately wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:40 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:42 am
In electric supercharging mode (when waste-gate/s are open – no backpressure) the ‘H’ is in motor mode and not only not recovering but it is sharing ES power with ‘K’.
How often are the wastegates open?
Hardly at all is my thought.
thank you for this
Might be my ignorant ears but I cannot audibly pick up when the waste gate opens.
For a 58% full throttle track the waste gate as indicated was only open a relatively small amount of that time. About what you expect as the MGU H does its other duties, IMHO.

wuzak
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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johnny comelately wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:21 am
wuzak wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:24 am
johnny comelately wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:40 pm

How often are the wastegates open?
Hardly at all is my thought.
thank you for this
Might be my ignorant ears but I cannot audibly pick up when the waste gate opens.
For a 58% full throttle track the waste gate as indicated was only open a relatively small amount of that time. About what you expect as the MGU H does its other duties, IMHO.
That's 39.7s at full throttle in a 76.5s lap = 51.8% at full throttle.
23.1s at full power => 23.1/39.7 = 58% of full throttle time is with max engine power.

There are places where the MGUK would deploy where the wastegates aren't open as well.

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henry
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Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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wuzak wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:35 am
johnny comelately wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:21 am
wuzak wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:24 am


thank you for this
Might be my ignorant ears but I cannot audibly pick up when the waste gate opens.
For a 58% full throttle track the waste gate as indicated was only open a relatively small amount of that time. About what you expect as the MGU H does its other duties, IMHO.
That's 39.7s at full throttle in a 76.5s lap = 51.8% at full throttle.
23.1s at full power => 23.1/39.7 = 58% of full throttle time is with max engine power.

There are places where the MGUK would deploy where the wastegates aren't open as well.
Converting to ES MJ consumption that’s:

23.1x200 = 4.6 MJ in max power mode (ES drained by compressor and K)
16.6x50 = 0.8 MJ MJ in Self sustain plus (ES supplementing H to drive K)

5.4 MJ total. This is at the lower bound of what seems possible.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

wuzak
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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henry wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:23 am
wuzak wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:35 am
johnny comelately wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:21 am

thank you for this
Might be my ignorant ears but I cannot audibly pick up when the waste gate opens.
For a 58% full throttle track the waste gate as indicated was only open a relatively small amount of that time. About what you expect as the MGU H does its other duties, IMHO.
That's 39.7s at full throttle in a 76.5s lap = 51.8% at full throttle.
23.1s at full power => 23.1/39.7 = 58% of full throttle time is with max engine power.

There are places where the MGUK would deploy where the wastegates aren't open as well.
Converting to ES MJ consumption that’s:

23.1x200 = 4.6 MJ in max power mode (ES drained by compressor and K)
16.6x50 = 0.8 MJ MJ in Self sustain plus (ES supplementing H to drive K)

5.4 MJ total. This is at the lower bound of what seems possible.
If the full power mode drained the battery then the energy used in max power mode would be 4MJ.

Which would mean the ERS power for that period would be 173.2kW => MGUH 53.2kW.

In self sustain mode, energy used would be 16.6s * 53.2kW = 0.88MJ.

Therefore total energy used would be 4.88MJ.

I'm still not convinced that maximum power with wastegates open means motoring the MGUH.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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What will one expect the MGU-H to be doing with the waste-gate/s open?.

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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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wuzak wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:48 am
henry wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:23 am
wuzak wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:35 am


That's 39.7s at full throttle in a 76.5s lap = 51.8% at full throttle.
23.1s at full power => 23.1/39.7 = 58% of full throttle time is with max engine power.

There are places where the MGUK would deploy where the wastegates aren't open as well.
Converting to ES MJ consumption that’s:

23.1x200 = 4.6 MJ in max power mode (ES drained by compressor and K)
16.6x50 = 0.8 MJ MJ in Self sustain plus (ES supplementing H to drive K)

5.4 MJ total. This is at the lower bound of what seems possible.
If the full power mode drained the battery then the energy used in max power mode would be 4MJ.

Which would mean the ERS power for that period would be 173.2kW => MGUH 53.2kW.

In self sustain mode, energy used would be 16.6s * 53.2kW = 0.88MJ.

Therefore total energy used would be 4.88MJ.

I'm still not convinced that maximum power with wastegates open means motoring the MGUH.
We will drift a long way off topic off we continue this. This is an interesting video. I think based on it both our calculations aren’t quite right. I’m busy over the next couple of days but after that I’ll try to resurrect this in the old ERS thread.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

wuzak
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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It now occurs to me that the 4MJ lap is only between the ES and MGUK. Whatever goes to the MGUH from the ES is not counted in the 4MJ. So it would be quite possible that Henry's calcs are right.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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‘’The red herring fallacy - The original issues will always seem effectively been settled by the irrelevant diversions’’.
The rules counts and police only what is relevant to safeguard compliance with the stipulated rules. They police what goes in and out of ‘K’. They do that to safeguards the limits of what is permitted in and out of ‘K’. any flow between ‘K’ and ‘H’ is irrelevant to police.
They police ES soc. They do that to safeguard the limits of the permitted soc of ES. Any flow between ‘ES’ and ‘H’ is irrelevant to police.

johnny comelately
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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e36jon wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:00 pm
Greetings all

In the spirit of 'better late than never' I stumbled across a 2019 Ferrari piston and rod (Below) that is quite a bit different than the 2020 that was posted earlier. The original parts and images are here
https://www.racinghalloffamecollection. ... od-piston/.

Enjoy.

Jon

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/920/yn5hyy.jpg

Found these today, 11/18/2022:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7562/m8jCnU.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/687x ... 4Ai7Wz.jpg

Here's the 2020 piston crown for comparison:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/972x ... 0AbWJD.jpg

Found new images of the 2020 crown, 11/18/2022:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/638x ... CZH82n.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/638x ... 4BqyEz.jpg
I hadnt noticed you added/ editted your great post.
So "Bump"
Getting back to the "transporter" piston question the lack of valve relief doesnt tally with the 4000RPM idle??

Hoffman900
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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A Miller Cycle engine has a lot less valve lift needs than a naturally aspirated engine. Also to get the rules limited geometric compression ratio of 18:1, you need everything. Lastly, valve reliefs are terrible for combustion. I'm not surprised they don't have any.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mmmmmaybe.
They wouldnt be idling at 4K RPM if it was true Miller. These RPM are a consequence of VT.
I am highly skeptical of Millerising, it is often a normal consequence of timing anyway.
Valve timing is valve timing is what works on the dyno. The cylinder fill has to satisfy the below.
One has to work backwards:
The pre ignition pressure is paramount and is determined by the fuel properties firstly and it has to be congruent with the SAHCCI very fine requirements and has to be point on through all transition.
This brings up the question how do they get a rev range and achieve the high efficiency? Beginning with cylinder cut 2 then 3 etc; then variable lambda (a la diesel)
Luckily with the eturbo they can produce the pressure required for their target and to suit this incredible lambda.

I agree re valve relief possibly impeding combustion and therefore efficiency but in the subsequent images they have been introduced and blended beautifully.

Again thanks to e36jon for these insightful images, if only these aero chaps would get interested in the very thing that gives them ....aero!

No one has discussed the discolour yet...next subject I hope.

"The oxidation of the Al(111) surface at 850K (575C) under clean, ultrahigh vacuum conditions produces a sapphire blue coloration of the surface. The blue color is observable for oxygen exposures in the range 400L to 3200L. XPS, ELS and LEED measurements indicate that a crystalline aluminum oxide forms on Al(111) upon initial exposure to oxygen and then subsequently grows as islands on the surface. The Al(2p) core level binding energy measured by XPS combined with previously reported soft-x-ray absorption measurements of the Al(2p) core level-conduction band energy separation suggests that the blue color arises from an optically excited electron transfer between the aluminum metal Fermi energy and the aluminum oxide conduction band."

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
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Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:02 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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johnny comelately wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:05 pm
Mmmmmaybe.
They wouldnt be idling at 4K RPM if it was true Miller. These RPM are a consequence of VT.
I am highly skeptical of Millerising, it is often a normal consequence of timing anyway.
Valve timing is valve timing is what works on the dyno. The cylinder fill has to satisfy the below.
One has to work backwards:
The pre ignition pressure is paramount and is determined by the fuel properties firstly and it has to be congruent with the SAHCCI very fine requirements and has to be point on through all transition.
This brings up the question how do they get a rev range and achieve the high efficiency? Beginning with cylinder cut 2 then 3 etc; then variable lambda (a la diesel)
Luckily with the eturbo they can produce the pressure required for their target and to suit this incredible lambda.

I agree re valve relief possibly impeding combustion and therefore efficiency but in the subsequent images they have been introduced and blended beautifully.

Again thanks to e36jon for these insightful images, if only these aero chaps would get interested in the very thing that gives them ....aero!

No one has discussed the discolour yet...next subject I hope.

"The oxidation of the Al(111) surface at 850K (575C) under clean, ultrahigh vacuum conditions produces a sapphire blue coloration of the surface. The blue color is observable for oxygen exposures in the range 400L to 3200L. XPS, ELS and LEED measurements indicate that a crystalline aluminum oxide forms on Al(111) upon initial exposure to oxygen and then subsequently grows as islands on the surface. The Al(2p) core level binding energy measured by XPS combined with previously reported soft-x-ray absorption measurements of the Al(2p) core level-conduction band energy separation suggests that the blue color arises from an optically excited electron transfer between the aluminum metal Fermi energy and the aluminum oxide conduction band."
Miller Cycle is what works in these super high airflow / lean running engines. Part of it is for thermal management. This isn’t a secret. You idle at 4000rpm for lots of reasons 1) the turbo and associated components likely won’t run below that 2) oiling 3) potential harmonic issues. A lot of these types of engines run san damper. 4) these controlled knock combustion concepts only work over a more narrow range. This is why zero engines on the street run or will ever run like this.

Remember, these engines are running 80psi or so, and that’s with very efficient set ups… that’s a lot of cfm.

I heard a new term for these combustion concepts today, “super knock”.