Cryo-KERS and MGU-Cold

[PlatinumZealot]

It has come to my realization that the KERS and MGUH motors can be made with superconducting materials.

The advantage of using superconductors is a reduction in electrical resistance and hence heat generation. Imagine the lighting quick power you could transfer without any fear of system overheat. The KERS and MGU-H can be pushed to the limits. The motors can be made ever more compact. (Honda are you reading this?) The only bottle-neck would be the actual algorithm used to manage the energy flows.

I am not a chemical engineer or an electrical engineer but I think it is very feasible to have a cryo system fit neatly into an F1 car. It would be driven by the engine. This is actually not impossible to achieve with a well designed setup. The mass of conductor that you need to cool is actually very small. Once it is sufficiently insulated away from other heat sources it shouldn't need a huge power source to keep cool either.

The system will add weight, but at the same time kers and mguh will be smaller. The extra power availability would also give a net advantage in lap time.

Maybe this is a crazy dream, but I welcome any one who has knowledge on cyro refridgeration, supeconductors and motors to shed some more light.

[gruntguru]

Not sure if superconducting motors have been made as small as 120 kW. The main advantage would be less heat and a few percent more power. The conductor mass is much, much less than copper.

[graham.reeds]

The best superconducting material runs at (iirc) -89 deg C.

You need a constant supply of coolant.

This supply of coolant needs to be carried - though it would bleed off. If LOX or LH you could dump the excess into the ICE for a bigger bang.

[riff_raff]

There is no such thing as a free lunch. While it is true in theory that superconducting materials could be used for the motor/generator devices used in F1, the associated cryogenic cooling systems required would add quite a bit of complexity and weight, and would provide no net benefit. Imagine just how complicated it would be to add a liquid N2 cooling circuit to an F1 car just for the superconductors used in the MGU.

The oil-cooled copper conductors used in the PM MGU stators are already quite efficient. So there is not much to be gained there. One thing that presents a more difficult problem is the capability of the power electronics. Better to focus your efforts there.

[Just_a_fan]

The first question to ask is "how much energy will it take to run the cryo system?". Then " how much energy will I save by using a cryo system?". If the first value is larger than the second you can forget the idea straight away.

You then need to consider the possible increase in mass of the car when the cryo system is added. Sure, other components cn be made smaller because of the efficiency of superconducting but is there a net gain in car mass? If "yes" then forget it because you'll use more fuel to move the added mass.

Whenever looking for clever ways to improve the car, you must always ask what negatives the changes might bring too.

[Tommy Cookers]

superconductive materials are very good at conducting (DC only of course), but .....

the great (potential) benefit of superconductivity in electrical machines is extreme compactness
(because a superconductive conductor can carry near-infinite current and develop great force)
but realising this compactness demands correspondingly great mechanical strengths overall - SC material are rather weak
and presumably 100000 - 125000 rpm already demands high strength in the mgu-h

autogyro ? posted about 2 years ago iirc an EV motor performance plot showing in the sweet spot over 99% efficiency
ie conduction-related losses are about 0.5%
the power electronics efficiency must be quite close to 99% - although their losses are more in semiconductor devices
so superconductivity shows little potential here

the '120 kW' rules allow a presumption of 95% efficiency from crankshaft to gu-k output ? and from mu-k input to crankshaft ?
when efficiency exceeds 95% (incl. gearing losses) 120 kW mu-k output and gu-k output are correspondingly exceedable - legally

the ES process is presumably much the biggest inefficiency on the electrical side

[Andres125sx]

If a cryogenic system is fitted, it could be used also for other cooling purposes replacing or reducing some cooling parts, radiators, turbo/compressor...

Could that make it worth? Not only a weight saving or compensation for the added weight, it would reduce drag if radiators are smaller/non existant and cars/bodywork may be smaller improving aero efficiency

[Just_a_fan]

It still feels like a solution looking for a problem...

[Cold Fussion]

If a cryogenic system is fitted, it could be used also for other cooling purposes replacing or reducing some cooling parts, radiators, turbo/compressor...

Could that make it worth? Not only a weight saving or compensation for the added weight, it would reduce drag if radiators are smaller/non existant and cars/bodywork may be smaller improving aero efficiency

It doesn't seem like pumping cryogenic temperature fluids into the water jacket would be a fantastic idea. It is against the regulations anyway.

[Andres125sx]

If a cryogenic system is fitted, it could be used also for other cooling purposes replacing or reducing some cooling parts, radiators, turbo/compressor...

Could that make it worth? Not only a weight saving or compensation for the added weight, it would reduce drag if radiators are smaller/non existant and cars/bodywork may be smaller improving aero efficiency

It doesn't seem like pumping cryogenic temperature fluids into the water jacket would be a fantastic idea. It is against the regulations anyway.

If we can´t discuss about anything against the rules we can´t discuss at all

I wouldn´t pump -90ºC liquid into the cylinder, but with a simple valve the cryogenic liquid could keep the coolant into the operating window with smaller or even non existant radiators, and that may provide a big advantage.... if rules would allow it of course. Anycase it´s only an idea after reading someone saying the cryogenic liquid only for the SC wouldn´t be worth, then I thought if it could be used for more purposes to make it worth

[flynfrog]

don't forget the tow hitch for the trailer to tow the cryo storage tanks around.

[Just_a_fan]

Be no good in the corners - everyone knows that F1 cars can't stay in the tow in corners!

[PlatinumZealot]

The oil cooler can be eliminated...
The cooler for the cryo system is another questions.. but get this.. the heat that the cryo system transfers from the motors is much less than with copper. So I would expect if a vapour compression cycle is used the heat rejection is not as high.

[gruntguru]

Most of the load for the cryo system is heat that leaks in through the insulation. The superconducting motor generates very little heat, is much more compact and lightweight.

[Cold Fussion]

If a cryogenic system is fitted, it could be used also for other cooling purposes replacing or reducing some cooling parts, radiators, turbo/compressor...

Could that make it worth? Not only a weight saving or compensation for the added weight, it would reduce drag if radiators are smaller/non existant and cars/bodywork may be smaller improving aero efficiency

It doesn't seem like pumping cryogenic temperature fluids into the water jacket would be a fantastic idea. It is against the regulations anyway.

If we can´t discuss about anything against the rules we can´t discuss at all

I wouldn´t pump -90ºC liquid into the cylinder, but with a simple valve the cryogenic liquid could keep the coolant into the operating window with smaller or even non existant radiators, and that may provide a big advantage.... if rules would allow it of course. Anycase it´s only an idea after reading someone saying the cryogenic liquid only for the SC wouldn´t be worth, then I thought if it could be used for more purposes to make it worth

You are still going to need a heat exchanger unless you are talking about running about running a total loss cooling system instead of some sort of vapor compression cycle cooling loop. If you're talking about a total loss system then it will be with all probability completely impractical since you be burning through a huge amount of coolant.