If we cut mgu-k to max 60kw

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
NL_Fer
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If we cut mgu-k to max 60kw

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As a regulation.

Honda and Renault can close in, because less power is drawn, they can deploy mgu-k for a longer period. Les harvesting is needed, so wastegate is opened more often, making more noise. They still be hybrids, but the influence of the hybrid part is limited. No major design change is needed.

What an i missing?

drunkf1fan
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Re: If we cut mgu-k to max 60kw

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NL_Fer wrote:As a regulation.

Honda and Renault can close in, because less power is drawn, they can deploy mgu-k for a longer period. Les harvesting is needed, so wastegate is opened more often, making more noise. They still be hybrids, but the influence of the hybrid part is limited. No major design change is needed.

What an i missing?

Yup, I was recently having a rant on another forum about a stupid article where a 'journalist' asks what would happen if Mercedes were banned for being dominant. Well the short answer is any team spending 300mil with the threat of simply being banned for a year would quit the sport as being banned every couple of years is insane.

What journalists should be talking about but haven't at all is how any equalisation could be done. Problem is with a flat v8 it would be relatively easy to use the ecu to level out power. But with the current engines the entire design complexity and advantage is in the balance between ice/ers. If you reduce mgu-k power then almost all the mgu-h harvesting Merc do is worthless, meaning they'd be carrying extra weight for a turbo/mgu-h system they couldn't use where as an underpowered team who had a lighter/smaller engine to begin with would have a big advantage if everything was limited to that smaller engines power output.

But it should be something fans, journalists, pundits should be discussing sensibly with someone hopefully coming up with a potential way to move towards a more equal playing field. Until they start talking about it and coming up with ideas it won't have a chance of happening.

Personally I don't think limiting mgu-k is the way to go anyway. that would just reduce lap times significantly and frankly they should be pushing harder and closer to the limit. The extra power is making the cars harder to control, just not hard enough, halving the mgu-k power will make wheel spin/traction a smaller issue and though we aren't getting many spins it would reduce them. If anything I'd like to see maybe reduce the amount of mgu-h harvesting to a degree that allows the lesser engines to compete better and if anything increase the amount of power the mgu-k can output, 200bhp or something allow it to be used at higher power but for less of the lap. Put some of it directly in the drivers control as with the previous kers. So drivers have to decide when and where they'll get away with the extra power output, let them save it up for overtake attempts, etc.

gruntguru
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Re: If we cut mgu-k to max 60kw

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How about 100 kW?
je suis charlie

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DiogoBrand
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Re: If we cut mgu-k to max 60kw

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"Oh look! Mercedes has invested a lot of time and effort into making a power unit and now it's dominating the grid! Maybe we should take two cylinders off their engine to level the field out."

With this kind of approach we might as well have spec cars and spare manufacturers from investing shitloads of money in performance which will be banned a year later to 'level the field'.
Soon enough people will suggest Balance of Performance like GT3 on Formula one.

wuzak
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Re: If we cut mgu-k to max 60kw

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DiogoBrand wrote:"Oh look! Mercedes has invested a lot of time and effort into making a power unit and now it's dominating the grid! Maybe we should take two cylinders off their engine to level the field out."

With this kind of approach we might as well have spec cars and spare manufacturers from investing shitloads of money in performance which will be banned a year later to 'level the field'.
Soon enough people will suggest Balance of Performance like GT3 on Formula one.
You could adjust the fuel flow formula to get equality.

Mercedes gets 90kg/h, Ferrari 92kg/h while Renault and Honda get the full 100kg/h....

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DiogoBrand
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Re: If we cut mgu-k to max 60kw

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wuzak wrote:
DiogoBrand wrote:"Oh look! Mercedes has invested a lot of time and effort into making a power unit and now it's dominating the grid! Maybe we should take two cylinders off their engine to level the field out."

With this kind of approach we might as well have spec cars and spare manufacturers from investing shitloads of money in performance which will be banned a year later to 'level the field'.
Soon enough people will suggest Balance of Performance like GT3 on Formula one.
You could adjust the fuel flow formula to get equality.

Mercedes gets 90kg/h, Ferrari 92kg/h while Renault and Honda get the full 100kg/h....
That's exactly the sort of measure I was criticizing. :|

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dans79
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Re: If we cut mgu-k to max 60kw

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How about the other manufactures/teams figure out how to do a better job based on the rules they agreed to. :wtf:
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Silent Storm
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Re: If we cut mgu-k to max 60kw

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dans79 wrote:How about the other manufactures/teams figure out how to do a better job based on the rules they agreed to. :wtf:
This.. Why should Ferrari and Mercedes run 60kw when they can run more? Just because Honda cannot use their MGU to its full potential. Maybe Honda and Renault should do a better job.
I learn from the mistakes of people who take my advice...

wuzak
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Re: If we cut mgu-k to max 60kw

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DiogoBrand wrote:
wuzak wrote:
DiogoBrand wrote:"Oh look! Mercedes has invested a lot of time and effort into making a power unit and now it's dominating the grid! Maybe we should take two cylinders off their engine to level the field out."

With this kind of approach we might as well have spec cars and spare manufacturers from investing shitloads of money in performance which will be banned a year later to 'level the field'.
Soon enough people will suggest Balance of Performance like GT3 on Formula one.
You could adjust the fuel flow formula to get equality.

Mercedes gets 90kg/h, Ferrari 92kg/h while Renault and Honda get the full 100kg/h....
That's exactly the sort of measure I was criticizing. :|
I was actually not serious.

Facts Only
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Re: If we cut mgu-k to max 60kw

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We need to get some lead shoes for Usane Bolt as well then...
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

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turbof1
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Re: If we cut mgu-k to max 60kw

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Sometimes I'm truly baffled by some of the suggestions.

If you really want to tackle the Merc dominance in a fair way, you have to open up the regulations. I can agree that the likes of Renault and Honda are locked into their situation due the strict development rules. However, selectively applying restrictions is asking for problems. Since when do we punish success through effort and sacrifices?

Again: my suggestion would be to open up development regulations for everybody, including Mercedes. The law of diminishing returns will take care of the rest.
#AeroFrodo

graham.reeds
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Re: If we cut mgu-k to max 60kw

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How about forcing teams to load up the car with weight?

100grams per point: That would liven things up. I guess even Marussia will be able to keep up with a Merc carrying an extra 30kg :D

Seriously though:
  • Remove all development constraints on engines.
  • Limit the amount they can charge the teams.
  • Prevent a multi-tier system. An engine manufacturer cannot give team A the top spec engine and team B the previous year engine. If you are supply an engine you must give the current spec.
  • Place a defined limit in HP as measured at the wheels.

Cold Fussion
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Re: If we cut mgu-k to max 60kw

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Performance balancing is the antithesis of what Formula 1 is about. There are plenty of other terrible racing categories where you are actively punished for being better than the competition. Why is it only in racing where people are so hung up about other people being better, when Bayern Munich thrash a team 6-0 we don't have thousands of people moaning and suggesting they should only have 5 people on the field.

Per
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Re: If we cut mgu-k to max 60kw

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turbof1 wrote:Sometimes I'm truly baffled by some of the suggestions.

If you really want to tackle the Merc dominance in a fair way, you have to open up the regulations. I can agree that the likes of Renault and Honda are locked into their situation due the strict development rules. However, selectively applying restrictions is asking for problems. Since when do we punish success through effort and sacrifices?

Again: my suggestion would be to open up development regulations for everybody, including Mercedes. The law of diminishing returns will take care of the rest.
Since quite some time, actually. Mass dampers, OTEB, double diffusers, 2003 changes to the points system and the list goes on and on. That's only in the last 15 years (I didn't watch F1 before that so I wouldn't know much). Regulation changes to reduce dominance are a common thing and have in general proven to have a positive effect on the sport.

Mercedes did a good job with their 2014 PU, well done, congratulations and a very well deserved double world title. That this dominance is followed by another double title in 2015 is probably acceptable. That the advantage should stretch all the way to 2020 however, is ludicrous in my opinion. To see that any suggestions to change this are played down as nonsense, is beyond me.

As a sidenote I would also like to say I find it very low that the topic starter is being downvoted for making a suggestion and sparking an interesting discussion.

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dans79
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Re: If we cut mgu-k to max 60kw

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Per wrote: Since quite some time, actually. Mass dampers, OTEB, double diffusers, 2003 changes to the points system and the list goes on and on. That's only in the last 15 years (I didn't watch F1 before that so I wouldn't know much). Regulation changes to reduce dominance are a common thing and have in general proven to have a positive effect on the sport.
Closing loop holes in the rules that a team exploited to gain a competitive edge, is not the same as penalizing someone for doing a better job. And a case could be made that last year the FRIC ban was an attempt to reduce Merc's dominance......
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