The Gas Turbine powered Lotus 56B

[TheScrutineer]

Hi guys and girls,

After seeing the famous Lotus 56B gas turbine powered car at the Autosport show last month I have been inspired to investigate more about the car. I've collated a lot of information to do an article on my blog. Have a look, i'm open to opinions...

http://dmanf1.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02

[Steven]

Adding to that, more info here:
http://www.f1technical.net/f1db/cars/271/lotus-56b

Yet another damn interesting concept by Colin Chapman...
If only there was enough tech freedom to allow for such experiments these days.

[TheScrutineer]

Yes would love to have seen this further developed. Probably the most left field designs we have seen

[PlatinumZealot]

I actually did some research on turbine cars back uni days... The big weakness of course was limited speed range and poor response to loads. They are better suited to trucks and heavy load carrying vehicles.. But i think with the new hybrid technology gas turbines can find wider applications. The engines are light and powerful and they have the ability to run on different fuels. You can reduce gearbox weight too. You dont need much more gears. The hybridiazation can make up for the lack of response and part load efficiency.

[Sombrero]

“Fire Boid” the first turbine-powered Indy Car racing at Indianapolis

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2015 ... delegance/

a "3-D" Lotus 56B

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4vRyRGPYV0

[J.A.W.]

“Fire Boid” the first turbine-powered Indy Car racing at Indianapolis.

Well, at Indy, sure.. but not "racing" - as such..

Here's another turbine-car at at racetrack, a few years earlier on..

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/the-j ... ts-british

[Tommy Cookers]

Hi guys and girls,
After seeing the famous Lotus 56B gas turbine powered car at the Autosport show last month I have been inspired to investigate more about the car. I've collated a lot of information to do an article on my blog. Have a look, i'm open to opinions...
http://dmanf1.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02

Granatelli was an owner, not a designer (of gas-turbine cars)

iirc the 56 (Joe Leonard's ?) failed to win Indy only because the engine automatically shut itself down
there being an aviation type fire detection system that decided to do this if the temperatures rose faster than expected
this happening due to the sudden pickup of racing after a full-course yellow
(imo probably what was given as fuel pump failure, also given re the Pollard car failure)

and P&W had the engine set for something like a 1600 hr life, as normal
ACBC arranged the fuelling to be set for a life of a few hours - so giving another 200 bhp or so
without this it would not have been so competitive

[TheScrutineer]

Hi guys and girls,
After seeing the famous Lotus 56B gas turbine powered car at the Autosport show last month I have been inspired to investigate more about the car. I've collated a lot of information to do an article on my blog. Have a look, i'm open to opinions...
http://dmanf1.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02

Granatelli was an owner, not a designer (of gas-turbine cars)

the 56B (Joe Leonard's ?) failed to win only because the engine automatically shut itself down
there being an aviation type system that decided to do this if the temperatures rose faster than expected
this happening due to the sudden pickup of racing after a full-course yellow

and P&W had the engine set for a 1600 hr life, as normal
ACBC arranged the fuelling to be set for a life of a few hours - so giving another 250 bhp or so
without this it would not have been competitive

Interesting thing about the engine shut down! Sorry what do you mean by the fuelling , the engine was toned down?

[Tommy Cookers]

engine life is highly dependent on the gas temperature onto the turbine
there is always a big surplus of air (relative to the amount needed to combust the fuel), largely to reduce this gas temperature
so power can simply be increased by increasing fuel flow, whenever a short engine life is acceptable
eg in cruise missiles or aviation record attempts

aviation gas turbines tend to have what we might see as an artificially low power rating for other reasons
twin-engined helis have artificially low power in normal use, higher power is automatic on the good engine when one engine has failed
similarly with turboprop aircraft

at Indy extravagant fuel consumption by turbine cars was unimportant, due to the inefficiency of the Indy-conventional methanol fuel

these turbine cars that raced had 4wd because turbine idle power was very high, so braking against this power was needed

in 1961 there was (not raced) a John Zink 'Trackburner' turbine car with 375 hp and an F1 (ie not Indy roadster) configuration
in 1966 the 1350 hp GE T58 engined 'Adams Aircraft Special' turbine Indy roadster was briefly tried at Indy

Rover had used 4wd, the 2 wd 160 hp gas-turbine Rover/BRM ran well at Le Mans in 63, and in 65 with a heat exchanger
and there were similar efforts by the 2 wd Howmet TX (McKee), winning in SCCA and running quite well in FIA endurance races
it had a Continental TS325-1 of 350 hp (now admitted to be slightly in breach of its FIA 3 litre equivalence)
it had power turbine bypass valves, reducing lag and the residual/idle power throttle-off that had caused others to need 4wd
also a 2 speed gearbox iirc

there's a thread 'The Chrysler Turbine History' in the Automotive News and Technology section

[riff_raff]

Actually, almost every Champ Car engine over the past couple decades used some type of "gas turbine". The turbochargers used are just an exhaust gas turbine coupled to a centrifugal intake air compressor.

[TheScrutineer]

Interesting about preserving engine life. I find it strange about how they came up with the 'equivalency' formula, i.e 2 litre class in Le Mans. Understand its just based on what they judge similar in performance at the time.

[J.A.W.]

Actually, almost every Champ Car engine over the past couple decades used some type of "gas turbine". The turbochargers used are just an exhaust gas turbine coupled to a centrifugal intake air compressor.

Does the air-con blower fan in my passenger car count as "...some type of gas turbine." - since it shifts gas, even if its air, then?

AFAIR, Champ car 'turbines' do not transmit shaft power via the drive-train - as per the thread title car..
..or even gear to the crankshaft, like the current turbo-compound F1 mills..
..sure they reinvest the exhaust energy shaft-wise as compressor inlet boost, but its free spooling - other than by flow.. control..

[bill shoe]

great discussion. The Lotus F1 had extra-large fuel tanks, and someone earlier in thread said part-load fuel efficiency of turbines was bad. If a turbine was modified or designed from scratch in 2016 to be a plausible power unit in F1 or other top-level racecar, would it be competitive for fuel efficiency compared to a piston-turbo engine? (ignore hybrid stuff for now).

[mycadcae]

About the Lotus 56B and his "special" engine:

The Lotus 56 was a racing car, designed by Maurice Philippe as Team Lotus' 1968 entry in the Indianapolis 500, replacing the successful Lotus 38.

Colin Chapman developed the 56 as a potential F1 contender, part of his plan to have a single design to compete at both the Indy 500 and in Formula 1, but it was too heavy and never competitive. The car was designated as the 56B and Emerson Fittipaldi tried it in the 1971 Race of Champions and International Trophy non-Championship meetings. At Brands Hatch, during wet practice, the 56 was far and away the fastest car on the track, but the race was held in dry weather and the car was lost in midfield. At the Silverstone-based International Trophy, the car only lasted three laps of the first heat before suspension failure forced Fittipaldi's retirement. Dave Walker ran the car in the Dutch Grand Prix, and had progressed from 22nd to 10th in five laps of the very wet track, before sliding off the road and into retirement. Fittipaldi used the car again in that year's 1971 Italian Grand Prix and managed to bring the fragile design home 8th

Source: Wikipedia

[gruntguru]

great discussion. The Lotus F1 had extra-large fuel tanks, and someone earlier in thread said part-load fuel efficiency of turbines was bad. If a turbine was modified or designed from scratch in 2016 to be a plausible power unit in F1 or other top-level racecar, would it be competitive for fuel efficiency compared to a piston-turbo engine? (ignore hybrid stuff for now).

No. The best gas turbines are at currently at 42 - 43% TE and these are monsters designed to run at constant speed. A small automotive GT with some speed flexibility would struggle to exceed 30%.

OTOH it appears Mercedes are at 45% (or 50%) already.