2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Race & Crash Dscussion

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I was amazed at the speed with which Vettel came in front of Verstappen. If one watches Verstappen's onboard, you would see that Vettel was carrying enarmous speed to be cutting across another driver. Max at that point, seems to have backed off a little, but from the other side, Kimi was carrying similar speed to Vettel. Look at the collision between the two Ferraris. If not for Kimi coming alongside, looks like Verstappen would have banged Vettel from behind by the time they would have reached turn 1.

Vettel was putting too much trust on Max to back out, despite knowing that Max never does that! Extremely risky move from Vettel, considering he could have still won with a strategy on a wet day! He was the one who had everything to lose, in a battle with Verstappen. Very stupid of him.

A lot of people questioned Lewis not being aggressive on Ricciardo in Austria and backing out of an aggressive overtaking move that left him with a 4th place finish. He used his experience to best manage the situation and not compromise with a DNF. Contrary to that, Vettel went aggressive on Verstappen in Silverstone and here as well. Lost out on both occasions.

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TAG
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Race & Crash Dscussion

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Zynerji wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 18:21
TAG wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 18:18
https://twitter.com/ScuderiaFerrari/sta ... 8630003716

Actually the most embarrassing thing this weekend was this tweet from Ferrari. Their fans here are merely reflecting their lead. Talk about lack of dignity. =D>
Ver hit Rai. You cannot dispute that fact.
go ahead, finish the thought, why did Verstappen hit Raikkonen?
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Restomaniac
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Race & Crash Dscussion

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GPR-A wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 18:27
I was amazed at the speed with which Vettel came in front of Verstappen. If one watches Verstappen's onboard, you would see that Vettel was carrying enarmous speed to be cutting across another driver. Max at that point, seems to have backed off a little, but from the other side, Kimi was carrying similar speed to Vettel. Look at the collision between the two Ferraris. If not for Kimi coming alongside, looks like Verstappen would have banged Vettel from behind by the time they would have reached turn 1.

Vettel was putting too much trust on Max to back out, despite knowing that Max never does that! Extremely risky move from Vettel, considering he could have still won with a strategy on a wet day! He was the one who had everything to lose, in a battle with Verstappen. Very stupid of him.

A lot of people questioned Lewis not being aggressive on Ricciardo in Austria and backing out of an aggressive overtaking move that left him with a 4th place finish. He used his experience to best manage the situation and not compromise with a DNF. Contrary to that, Vettel went aggressive on Verstappen in Silverstone and here as well. Lost out on both occasions.
Even today Hamilton goes wide and backs out expecting Vettel (or somebody) is going to pop out infront of him. He has no idea Vettel (and others) are all out he just plays the percentages better.

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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In the image below, if you watch Verstappen's onboard, he was in a situation where he couldn't even slow down as Kimi's rear wheel was already blocking Verstappen's front and Vettel was fast closing the road ahead.

Image

So similar to this....

Image

And this....

Image

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Shrieker
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Race & Crash Dscussion

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Moose wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 17:41
Juzh wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 17:38
And when you slow it down to 50% it's even more obvious (rai turning into max that is).
Wow, you guys are *really* trying hard to make this not Vettel's fault, aren't you?
No, I personally am after the facts. Check my posts in this topic.
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DVB
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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Bwoah
Everybody is a Ferrari fan.

Fulcrum
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Race & Crash Dscussion

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I'm not going to apportion blame to Max, but I will try to highlight a couple of his reactions from the start, as well as those of Raikkonen. I've made a rough attempt to stitch a few stills together to elaborate my perspective.

Image

Immediately from the start Verstappen moves toward Vettel, Vettel likewise moves slightly toward his left (our right). The net gap between Verstappen and Vettel has closed by a full car width before Hamilton crosses the start line. Raikkonen has got the start of his life, sees the space Verstappen has created, and moves left to continue his momentum, getting a big tank slapper as he begins to pull alongside Verstappen.

By the 4th frame Raikkonen is halfway alongside Verstappen, Vettel has maintained his leftward trajectory, and Verstappen has continued straight. Verstappen is looking straight ahead, not suspecting Raikkonen is there, and not adjusting his trajectory away from Vettel.

The fifth frame is where Verstappen alters his trajectory in response to Vettel, who continues to veer left. Verstappen very clearly steers to his left. He isn't looking left though, and has not noticed Raikkonen. Raikkonen is almost alongside Verstappen at this point.

In the region of the sixth, seventh and eights frames, Verstappen notices Raikkonen and makes a big correction, but Raikkonen and Verstappen are now very close together, and Vettel continues to move further left. At this point, Raikkonen does move very slightly right, and Verstappen moves slightly left - cue DNFs for all.

Image

I've tried to get Raikkonen and Verstappen's movements in-line so that we understand who was doing what when. There is a thin line indicating a perfect horizontal, but the camera angle isn't dead straight on Raikkonen's footage, so his wheel doesn't align 100%.

It's pretty clear that Verstappen initially moves left, then straightens his wheel. This would have him moving slightly left with constant path. As soon as he notices Raikkonen, he corrects to the right very sharply, but then he straightens his wheel again, probably in response to Vettel's continued path leftward. The final position is left-leaning, by which stage they're going to have an accident.

Raikkonen's movements are far more subtle, but I can corroborate that Raikkonen makes a very small adjustment to the right, pretty much as his front wheels pass Verstappen's. At this point, Raikkonen is edging slightly to the right, and Verstappen slightly to the left - cue DNF's for all.

Very difficult to apportion any blame here. A confluence of factors caused this in my opinion. Vettel moving consistently left, without any regard for any driver other than Verstappen, being a significant factor; Raikkonen's start, putting him in a position neither Vettel nor Verstappen had bargained for; and the rain - Raikkonen and Verstappen were both correcting for wheel spin throughout this sequence, so it goes without saying that neither were fully in control of the situation.

Overall, Vettel can blame himself for forgetting a race can only be lost in the first corner, but I find it difficult to suggest his actions warrant a penalty more harsh than he inflicted on himself.

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WaikeCU
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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GPR-A wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 18:43
In the image below, if you watch Verstappen's onboard, he was in a situation where he couldn't even slow down as Kimi's rear wheel was already blocking Verstappen's front and Vettel was fast closing the road ahead.

https://image.prntscr.com/image/DKOqqd5 ... 2xwNHg.png
You can't blame Kimi either. Just look at that river on his left. You expect to drive onto that? Kimi was trying to avoid that, but that action wasn't so dramatic the swerve Seb did towards Max. If Seb remained on his line, things would have ended just fine, but Seb took the risk thinking the race is won in turn 1 and that's what you get.

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Mattchu
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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Fair enough that its been classed as a racing incident, these type of things happen on a wet track when some drivers make superb starts (no wheelspin) and others don`t. The ones that make sluggish starts try to defend while the lightning quick guys are invariably in a position they would not normally be...

Still i think Hamilton [or maybe Sainz!} deserve DOTD, Hamilton was able to pull a decent gap on Ric (possible gearbox issue) after every safety car and the gap between him and Bottas makes you realize how average Bottas is in the wet. It must be a tad deflating to build a good ten second lead only to have it wipped out several times!

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ringo
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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I blame vettel. But there is a twist..
Vettel saw Kimi was going into T1 first. His knee jerk reaction was to chop Kimi off and max would have been taken care of because he is already behind.
What went wrong was vettel didnt know max wasnt far enough behind.
For Sure!!

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Juzh
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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ringo wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 19:39
I blame vettel. But there is a twist..
the shock

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

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Zynerji wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 15:11
Spoutnik wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 15:08
Max responsability ? Vettel fanboys have no shame...
By track position, he got the worst start of the top 4. He was beat into the corner, and behind. He should have yielded.
Verstappen had a better start than Vettel. That's why he was able to have his front wheels alongside Vettel's rear wheels. Kimi had the best start of the three. Ricciardo in 4th had the worst start. So you got the "he got the worst start of the top 4" bit quite spectacularly wrong there.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

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Restomaniac wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 16:20
jknights wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 16:17
Sorry Ferrari Twitter-twat feed is head up ass.
How could a person sandwiched between two cars be the cause of the problem when Vettel steers left from start and Kimi comes from left and forces Verstappen right.
Get real.... Be realistic and rational.

Vettel will possibly get a penalty from the stewards and may miss a race if he has too many points on his license!
Shame as that is equivalent of a DNF.
We need a real challenge for the championship not a runaway!.
Don't be silly. They will use the Vettel 'sliding scale depends who it is' penalties chart again.
I can hear the stewards unfolding it as we speak.
Either that or blame Verstappen for his inability to vanish.
Don't forget the Baku "we don't want to influence the championship" excuse too. Which, it seems, they remembered today as well. #-o
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Race & Crash Dscussion

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TAG wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 18:29
Zynerji wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 18:21
TAG wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 18:18
https://twitter.com/ScuderiaFerrari/sta ... 8630003716

Actually the most embarrassing thing this weekend was this tweet from Ferrari. Their fans here are merely reflecting their lead. Talk about lack of dignity. =D>
Ver hit Rai. You cannot dispute that fact.
go ahead, finish the thought, why did Verstappen hit Raikkonen?
Lack of track awareness.

It would be different if Sebastian hit him and changed his course...

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TAG
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Race & Crash Dscussion

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Zynerji wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 20:07
TAG wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 18:29
Zynerji wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 18:21

Ver hit Rai. You cannot dispute that fact.
go ahead, finish the thought, why did Verstappen hit Raikkonen?
Lack of track awareness.

It would be different if Sebastian hit him and changed his course...
It's okay mate, Lewis had track awareness for all three of them today. Time to put this craziness to bed.
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