Silly Season 2018/2019

[izzy]

Ocon's biggest problem is that he's the opposite of the likes of Verstappen and Leclerc. Where those two challenged boundaries (with all the spectacular crashes that come with that tactic), Ocon is someone who brings a car home, especially when he's got the trust of the team (2016 and 2017 were good examples, only once crashed out of a race).

Back to Ocon. I don't think he's the loose cannon some members here suggest he is and I suspect he's more of a Bottas then a Verstappen once he's in a good car.

My impression was that Esteban got into quite a bit of contact and more than one little feud, like with Gasly as well as Max. And he didn't look massively fast compared to Checo, like just a bit faster.

Of course he was young but personally I wouldn't put him in Max's class, at this point, anyway, tho I'd love to know the sim data from him vs George and Lewis.

[Jolle]

Ocon's biggest problem is that he's the opposite of the likes of Verstappen and Leclerc. Where those two challenged boundaries (with all the spectacular crashes that come with that tactic), Ocon is someone who brings a car home, especially when he's got the trust of the team (2016 and 2017 were good examples, only once crashed out of a race).

Back to Ocon. I don't think he's the loose cannon some members here suggest he is and I suspect he's more of a Bottas then a Verstappen once he's in a good car.

My impression was that Esteban got into quite a bit of contact and more than one little feud, like with Gasly as well as Max. And he didn't look massively fast compared to Checo, like just a bit faster.

Of course he was young but personally I wouldn't put him in Max's class, at this point, anyway, tho I'd love to know the sim data from him vs George and Lewis.

2018 wasn't his best year indeed, but don't forget, that year the team had a underdeveloped car, financial problems and a lot of added pressure. I suspect that next to the sim and test data he (and Russel) did at Mercedes, they also have the telemetry from his years in other teams and incorporate that into a coaching program. With drivers in this stage in their career it's not only how fast they are but also how fast they learn and how steep their angle of development it. This is one of the reasons RedBull backed Verstappen so quickly, not because he was faster then Ricciardo, but that he had more potential according to them. This is why a shootout between Bottas and Ocon has no meaning.

[izzy]

2018 wasn't his best year indeed, but don't forget, that year the team had a underdeveloped car, financial problems and a lot of added pressure. I suspect that next to the sim and test data he (and Russel) did at Mercedes, they also have the telemetry from his years in other teams and incorporate that into a coaching program. With drivers in this stage in their career it's not only how fast they are but also how fast they learn and how steep their angle of development it. This is one of the reasons RedBull backed Verstappen so quickly, not because he was faster then Ricciardo, but that he had more potential according to them. This is why a shootout between Bottas and Ocon has no meaning.

Mercedes must see something in him mustn't they, including he must be faster than Valtteri or the question wouldn't even arise. Tho racefans pointed out that in 12 days of testing, although they've had him do masses of sim work, they haven't used Esteban actually in the car. Tho as you say a lot of it is about potential.

Still for the time being I'm still thinking Renault for him

[Jolle]

2018 wasn't his best year indeed, but don't forget, that year the team had a underdeveloped car, financial problems and a lot of added pressure. I suspect that next to the sim and test data he (and Russel) did at Mercedes, they also have the telemetry from his years in other teams and incorporate that into a coaching program. With drivers in this stage in their career it's not only how fast they are but also how fast they learn and how steep their angle of development it. This is one of the reasons RedBull backed Verstappen so quickly, not because he was faster then Ricciardo, but that he had more potential according to them. This is why a shootout between Bottas and Ocon has no meaning.

Mercedes must see something in him mustn't they, including he must be faster than Valtteri or the question wouldn't even arise. Tho racefans pointed out that in 12 days of testing, although they've had him do masses of sim work, they haven't used Esteban actually in the car. Tho as you say a lot of it is about potential.

Still for the time being I'm still thinking Renault for him

Oh I agree with you with Renault, that’s a perfect fit from the outside.

[Big Tea]

Don't for get Mercedes has to factor in the departure of Hamilton. They can not grantee him being there in 21-22 etc. Bottas is 29(?) now and should both he and Hamilton decide to leave at the same time they would end up with two 'new' drivers. Testing Ocon would prove or rule out one option for the new line up.

[Zarathustra]

Just think about Hamilton not being there this year- Bottas would have been first, leading the championship.. but by only *7 points.
(*- I know this would be different, but still..)

That’s just a too small margin for such a good team and car- therefor Bottas is not ‘suitable’ to stay.

Imho Mercedes ‘wants’ someone whois consistently finishing directly behind- and occasionaly in front of Hamilton.

Bottas is just not doing that.

[NathanOlder]

Interesting,

as you say it would be different,

If we simply remove Hamilton from the results, Bottas would gain 43pts and Max would gain 32pts. Giving Bottas 18pts lead in the championship.

If that were the case now, the Championship would be wide open, and the Ferrari drivers would then also be in the mix.

I guess this backs up the importance for Mercedes to sign Lewis as long as they can?

If Mercedes didn't have Hamilton this year for some crazy reason like Hamilton retiring in February, All they could have done is put Ocon in and hope for the best.

Would have been very interesting to see.

[Capharol]

Imho Mercedes ‘wants’ someone whois consistently finishing directly behind- and occasionaly in front of Hamilton.

Bottas is just not doing that.

i don't know where anymore but i posted the results of Bottas and in that he was mostly under the top 3 (Canada 4th) and only in Germany (DNF) and Hungary (8th)

so where is Bottas "not doing that" ?

[Jolle]

I assume Liberty will move mountains to keep Hamilton and to a lesser extend Vettel in the sport until someone else is WC. Worse case scenario is that they both retire after 2020 leaving a gap.

If Hamilton becomes WC in 19 and 20, I see him in the Mercedes for another two years and livery will pray for Leclec and Verstappen to become WC so we have a good passing of the torch.

[Zarathustra]

Imho Mercedes ‘wants’ someone whois consistently finishing directly behind- and occasionaly in front of Hamilton.

Bottas is just not doing that.

i don't know where anymore but i posted the results of Bottas and in that he was mostly under the top 3 (Canada 4th) and only in Germany (DNF) and Hungary (8th)

so where is Bottas "not doing that" ?

Monaco, Canada, Germany and Hungary- making that 4 out of 10 races.

* in France he was well of Hamilton’s
race pace as well.

The pattern is that as the season progresses, his results drop.

He needs to be more consistent.

[Capharol]

Imho Mercedes ‘wants’ someone whois consistently finishing directly behind- and occasionaly in front of Hamilton.

Bottas is just not doing that.

i don't know where anymore but i posted the results of Bottas and in that he was mostly under the top 3 (Canada 4th) and only in Germany (DNF) and Hungary (8th)

so where is Bottas "not doing that" ?

Monaco, Canada, Germany and Hungary- making that 4 out of 10 races.

* in France he was well of Hamilton’s
race pace as well.

The pattern is that as the season progresses, his results drop.

He needs to be more consistent.

WOW.... you really seems to be biased towards Bottas.

In Monaco he finished 3th due to a 2nd pitstop which was caused by the pitlane-incident with Verstappen .....
but okay if you see it that way ... fine by me .... have a nice day

[NathanOlder]

Plus its 4 out of 12 for a start, not 4 out of 10.


Bottas is doing pretty well to be honest. All he isn't doing is beating Hamilton, who is expecting that? You can't really ask or expect any more than what he's already doing. If Ocon didnt exist at Merc right now, Toto would sign Bottas again in an instant.

[nacho]

For Bottas Monaco was good until the pit incident, Germany was good until the mistake, Hungary was good in qualifying but Leclerc took the front wing, Silverstone was good until the tire strategy and safety car.

Anyways Hamilton seems to be ahead in races, Bottas can't save tyres as well and seems to be losing near the end of stints. Not much between in qualifying. I hope he can fix the race pace.

I think Verstappen could be an upgrade but it seems unlikely that it would happen.

[Big Tea]

Plus its 4 out of 12 for a start, not 4 out of 10.


Bottas is doing pretty well to be honest. All he isn't doing is beating Hamilton, who is expecting that? You can't really ask or expect any more than what he's already doing. If Ocon didnt exist at Merc right now, Toto would sign Bottas again in an instant.

You thing there is political pressure on Toto from outside the team?

[izzy]

Bottas is doing pretty well to be honest. All he isn't doing is beating Hamilton, who is expecting that? You can't really ask or expect any more than what he's already doing. If Ocon didnt exist at Merc right now, Toto would sign Bottas again in an instant.

Yes Valtteri is perfect. Most of the times his races have gone badly is because of things happening, like Charles. He's a No2 is all, same as Rosberg and Jenson and Heikki. He often loses positions wheel to wheel, or has contact, or both, and can take ages to put together a pass, so even tho he is pretty fast he's a wingman. That's perfect, alongside Lewis. There aren't that many No2's with the right temperament.

And Lewis, well everyone can see he's made the difference the last 3 years, for Ferrari he represents the WDC in a box! And conversely Mercedes can't afford to lose him, if all they've got to replace him is Ocon. I can't even imagine how much he can ask for to re-sign for 2021! Even for 2013 Niki had to go and plead with the board for enough budget to sign him.