2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Phil
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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With all due respect Turbo, your illustration would never have happened because Vettel was half-a-car length behind max. They were never side by side (front-wheel to front-wheel side-by-side). Thus in order to make the line you are illustrating, he would have had to reduce the speed and thus fallen even more so behind. At the same speed of Max who was on the ideal racing line (the quickest way around that corner), he was already on the limit of speed around that bend. Hence for a tighter line, Vettel would have had to reduce his speed more than Max. It works if you are ahead, not when you are behind.

Also about Max clipping - e.g. "Verstappen had clipping issues and was done on power." - who says that wasn't the normal place that happens? It just means Vettel saved his deployment for a different area, that's all. I have seen nothing to suggest Max harvesting into that section is anything but normal.
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timbo
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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turbof1 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:55 am
Again, I'm not blaming Verstappen. I think he left just enough space as he was required to. I don't think it's clever that he squeezed so much however. It could have costed him his race as well. If he acted a bit more clever he would have kept the position and avoided unnecessary risk. For Vettel, it was a necessary risk because of his position to Hamilton. I'm not appropiating blame, just reasoning that Verstappen had more options without taking away his right to claim the corner.
To me this is a central point. Verstappen's podium position is a result of being lucky twice. In both collisions he could have punctured the tire or damage the car. Probably thrice, as had Kimi maintained the pace +5s penalty would have place Verstappen behind him.

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turbof1
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Phil wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:02 pm
With all due respect Turbo, your illustration would never have happened because Vettel was half-a-car length behind max. They were never side by side.

Also about Max clipping - e.g. "Verstappen had clipping issues and was done on power." - who says that wasn't the normal place that happens? It just means Vettel saved his deployment for a different area, that's all. I have seen nothing to suggest Max harvesting into that section is anything but normal.
With all due respect Phil, I did not say anywhere that Vettel would end up aside Verstappen. I think I was clear on that Verstappen would end up accelerating away. The arrows only reflect the lines they would take respectively, nothing more.

Verstappen was really down on power, you know that. It was quite abnormal how Vettel was able to close at the speed that he did. Verstappen would have known he was vulnerable.
Thus in order to make the line you have drawed up, he would have had to reduce the speed and thus fallen even more so behind.
Please quote a post from where I claim otherwise. I think I made 2 or 3 posts in a row where I said specifically Vettel was going to have scrub off more speed if an initial collision was avoiding with a bit more room. I think it's clear he had the room to do so. Again it's not a hairpin that where you brake late and miss you go instantly off the track. It's a corner where if you miss the braking point you will scrubbing off more speed after the apex and leave the corner quite slow.

I do hear the question than coming: "if he was going to have to scrub off more speed anyhow, than why commit to this move at all". Good question! Well, you can't predict always the outcome of your move. Vettel committed to it when he dove inside, which was even before the braking point. Where he would up in relation to Verstappen was not clear at that point. If he got his nose ahead, it would have been Vettel dictating the line and pushing wide.
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Wynters
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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timbo wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:07 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:55 am
Again, I'm not blaming Verstappen. I think he left just enough space as he was required to. I don't think it's clever that he squeezed so much however. It could have costed him his race as well. If he acted a bit more clever he would have kept the position and avoided unnecessary risk. For Vettel, it was a necessary risk because of his position to Hamilton. I'm not appropiating blame, just reasoning that Verstappen had more options without taking away his right to claim the corner.
To me this is a central point. Verstappen's podium position is a result of being lucky twice. In both collisions he could have punctured the tire or damage the car. Probably thrice, as had Kimi maintained the pace +5s penalty would have place Verstappen behind him.
Fortunately for Verstappen, he crippled the aero on one side of Kimi's car when he opened the steering into him which meant Kimi couldn't maintain the needed pace.

marvin78
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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The thread is: sticking it to Vettel. Reasonable voices are misheard on purpose. You could think that, if you read here. I should avoid race threads....

Restomaniac
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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turbof1 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:33 am
From what I can see Vettel did make an opportunistic move. Like marvin78 says, that can work if you are up against a driver minding his own race and who realizes he is outclassed anyway. Such a driver will leave a lot more room.

Watching the replay, Verstappen was hard but not overly so on squeezing Vettel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N3SItwAvKU

Basically he left Vettel enough room to be on track. But Vettel required more room to slow the car down. I think Verstappen did fail to realize that. Verstappen is entitled to his line because he did not take defensive action before the corner, thus is allowed to squeeze him but naturally leave enough space so not to push Vettel off the track. Verstappen did the minimum and nothing more. So Verstappen is morally fine to take that line, but he wasn't smart about it either. At that point the car of Vettel is more of a projectile heading for your car, and such a thing can easily cost your own car and race. Verstappen should have known this because his PU was clipping, so he should have known he was down on power and checked his mirrors to see the speed difference, and perhaps having taking a more defensive line approaching the corner, discouraging Vettel to plunch it down the inside. Or, take a wider line. With Vettel having to slown that much in a basically mid speed corner, and a straight following, I think Verstappen would have kept the place pure because of the acceleration.

Vettel on the other hand left himself completely at the mercy of Verstappen's choice, depending on Verstappen to voluntarily leave enough room to get the car to slown sufficiently. Verstappen is not the type of driver to let anybody by easily, and Vettel should have known that. That being said, I understand for doing that. To have been any meaningful in the WDC, he had to get rid of Verstappen as soon as possible and get to the Mercedes cars. Basically Vettel had to win and had to move up. So we should appreciate Vettel's approach. It just was played against the wrong type of driver.

Here are by the way some similar incidents but with important differences:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MjKBtJe4Fg
Vettel here takes the outside line (he could no do that with Verstappen because Verstappen was already on the outside). Because Vettel shot in front of Ricciardo before the hairpin, Vettel was allowed to dictate the line. He also was much more in control, able to control the space between him and Ricciardo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCsSQ1UctwY
Reversed situation, where Ricciardo dives on the inside of Vettel. Vettel saw Ricciardo was going to need (a lot) more room to navigate the corner, and opened up the steering wheel. Not because he was obliged to, but because if he didn't it could have ended his race. Admittingly, Ricciardo went in way hotter that Vettel did in Japan. Vettel would have navigated the corner in Japan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR3Ls5tcp5A
Similar incident to Vettel, but Verstappen locked up and carried way too much speed to navigate the corner properly. Vettel left more than enough space and probably did not expect, I wouldn't, an overtaking attempt from that far back.

So end conclusion: I think Vettel tried an opportunistic move, but not overly opportunistic as he would still have navigated the corner in a reasonable fashion. Given Verstappen was entitled to the racing line and also left just about a one car width room, but was not going to give anything more than that, Verstappen did nothing wrong in a technical sense. The collision was caused by Vettel requiring a bit more track and Verstappen not willing to give that. It ended up in a racing incident. I think that was the correct reasonable decision by the stewards.
I’ve said the same in that Vettel should have known that Verstappen was never going to yeild as he isn’t that kind of driver.

How many times have Vettel and Verstappen had a coming together now? Vettel needs to be smarter than this and pick his fights better WDC or not.

Wynters
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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marvin78 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:12 pm
The thread is: sticking it to Vettel. Reasonable voices are misheard on purpose. You could think that, if you read here. I should avoid race threads....
I don't think that's true. Most people agree it was a racing incident. The problem is that Vettel's move was, given the corner and the person involved, risky. If he'd waited until the start/finish straight then he would have breezed past with even more ease than in Singapore. That's why Vettel is being questioned. Discussion about the corner itself is mostly 'what ifs' and 'what woulds', not 'the collision is all Vettel's fault'.

Sure, there are probably a couple of people saying that but there's always a couple of people supporting any position. When Vettel hit Hamilton in Baku there were a couple of people saying that 'Vettel forgot to steer'. I'm sure if Hulk had more fans there would've been people saying that Spa wasn't his fault and that he only said 'it was clearly all my fault' because of some FIA / Renault conspiracy.

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turbof1
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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@restomaniac: Yeah you can indeed debate that. Vettel does know Verstappen is really a hard defender. But put yourself in Vettel's position: you are rapidly closing in due an abnormal and visible difference in power, you know you have to basically win the Grand Prix to stay in WDC contestion and Verstappen would keep you up from closing in on the Mercedes cars. Wouldn't you go for it, realizing chances might get scarcer and fewer further up the race? I personally would; I wouldn't pay respect to Verstappen's reputation and stick that nose also there as long as I can keep reasonable control over the car, because why would you pay respect to him? He's a competitor, let him fight for his position instead of letting his reputation fight for him.
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marvin78
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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I am not a fan of any driver. Is see them as normal people. So I count myself objective on that point. If you read here you can't come around the conclusion I made. I also see the problem with Vettels move but I also can see, that it was a move that is not so unordinary and that some drivers make in every second race, like his opponent. I like such moves and I like them by every driver. Accidents happen...

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turbof1
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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marvin78 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:23 pm
I am not a fan of any driver. Is see them as normal people. So I count myself objective on that point. If you read here you can't come around the conclusion I made. I also see the problem with Vettels move but I also can see, that it was a move that is not so unordinary and that some drivers make in every second race, like his opponent. I like such moves and I like them by every driver. Accidents happen...
Yeah indeed. Try to imagine if things went a tiny bit different, just a tiny bit and no collission happened (and that really is a matter of things happening just a tiny bit different). We would be applauding for such grandeur of racing. If Vettel then failed the overtaking move, we'd be saying "oh well he did try and almost succeeded!". If he'd succeeded, we would be putting this up for contention of best move of season 2018.

So things went wrong. Was any of the drivers in isolation unreasonable with how they acted? I don't see that at all. If such a fuss is being made about this, than what says that about the leclerc-magnussen 'incident', where magnussen clearly reacted way too late and basically threw himself in front of leclerc. The incident between Vettel and Verstappen was bad luck with the tiny margins; what magnussen did was actually reckless.
#AeroFrodo

marvin78
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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turbof1 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:31 pm
marvin78 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:23 pm
I am not a fan of any driver. Is see them as normal people. So I count myself objective on that point. If you read here you can't come around the conclusion I made. I also see the problem with Vettels move but I also can see, that it was a move that is not so unordinary and that some drivers make in every second race, like his opponent. I like such moves and I like them by every driver. Accidents happen...
Yeah indeed. Try to imagine if things went a tiny bit different, just a tiny bit and no collission happened (and that really is a matter of things happening just a tiny bit different). We would be applauding for such grandeur of racing. If Vettel then failed the overtaking move, we'd be saying "oh well he did try and almost succeeded!". If he'd succeeded, we would be putting this up for contention of best move of season 2018.

So things went wrong. Was any of the drivers in isolation unreasonable with how they acted? I don't see that at all. If such a fuss is being made about this, than what says that about the leclerc-magnussen 'incident', where magnussen clearly reacted way too late and basically threw himself in front of leclerc. The incident between Vettel and Verstappen was bad luck with the tiny margins; what magnussen did was actually reckless.
I fully agree to that.

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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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turbof1 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:20 pm
@restomaniac: Yeah you can indeed debate that. Vettel does know Verstappen is really a hard defender. But put yourself in Vettel's position: you are rapidly closing in due an abnormal and visible difference in power, you know you have to basically win the Grand Prix to stay in WDC contestion and Verstappen would keep you up from closing in on the Mercedes cars. Wouldn't you go for it, realizing chances might get scarcer and fewer further up the race? I personally would; I wouldn't pay respect to Verstappen's reputation and stick that nose also there as long as I can keep reasonable control over the car, because why would you pay respect to him? He's a competitor, let him fight for his position instead of letting his reputation fight for him.
If we had ran a straw poll just before Vettel made his move on here (or anywhere that takes a real interest in F1) I’m pretty certain the answer would come back that it’s highely likely not to work due to Verstappen previous driving. Vettel MUST have known that.

As such no I wouldn’t I would have saved my batteries and got him with DRS, stronger engine and full batteries on the straight. Why did he rush? He would have had him around 30 seconds later anyway.

Like I say Vettel needs to be smarter. Vettel seems to have a strange situation with Verstappen though. So much so that my son is starting to think I can see into the future. It seems almost every time Vettel comes within contact distance there is indeed contact and I’ve started saying as such before it happens which amazes my 6 year old. I get the impression that there is no love lost between Vettel and Verstappen either.

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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:44 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:20 pm
@restomaniac: Yeah you can indeed debate that. Vettel does know Verstappen is really a hard defender. But put yourself in Vettel's position: you are rapidly closing in due an abnormal and visible difference in power, you know you have to basically win the Grand Prix to stay in WDC contestion and Verstappen would keep you up from closing in on the Mercedes cars. Wouldn't you go for it, realizing chances might get scarcer and fewer further up the race? I personally would; I wouldn't pay respect to Verstappen's reputation and stick that nose also there as long as I can keep reasonable control over the car, because why would you pay respect to him? He's a competitor, let him fight for his position instead of letting his reputation fight for him.
If we had ran a straw poll just before Vettel made his move on here (or anywhere that takes a real interest in F1) I’m pretty certain the answer would come back that it’s highely likely not to work due to Verstappen previous driving. Vettel MUST have known that.

As such no I wouldn’t I would have saved my batteries and got him with DRS, stronger engine and full batteries on the straight. Why did he rush? He would have had him around 30 seconds later anyway.

Like I say Vettel needs to be smarter. Vettel seems to have a strange situation with Verstappen though. So much so that my son is starting to think I can see into the future. It seems almost every time Vettel comes within contact distance there is indeed contact and I’ve started saying as such before it happens which amazes my 6 year old. I get the impression that there is no love lost between Vettel and Verstappen either.
I'd argue to never respect your opponent beyond what you are required to do. playing with the thought that Verstappen is a hard defender in your head will make you also unsure in other situations. I can understand your reasoning though, there is certainly merit to it. Vettel could have waited. On the other hand, you never know if Vettel would have gotten another chance. Verstappen might have generated enough power again when coming out of the Spoon Curve and Vettel would have to drop back due the turbulent flow. Although a lot of overtakes did happen exiting out of 130R, you just can't predict your future and I think Vettel tried to grasp an opportunity he saw.

Should Vettel be smarter? He needs to make first of all less mistakes (I'm not going to attack his intellect directly, I'll leave that to anybody's personal opinion) throughout the season. The mistakes he made throughout the season culminated to this situation where he cannot afford to be smart and careful. He did the right thing in my eyes, taking risks (which is not the same as reckless behaviour), because what was he going to loose realistically if it backfired (which it did)? Realistically the WDC was always going to be over if he was not going to win in Japan.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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2 things I would like to point out are,

1. How does Vettel make so much contact with others and never seem to break his car! I mean he seems to have a tank under him every time he goes to war! He gets a lot of luck in these situations.

2. The Max & Seb rivalry is getting more intense every couple of races it seems. I wonder if in 2019/2020 when Red Bull could be fighting for a title and Ferrari may not (just speculation), that Seb may be battling Max harder because of 'the past' and it could hurt Max in the long run.
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:56 pm
2 things I would like to point out are,

1. How does Vettel make so much contact with others and never seem to break his car! I mean he seems to have a tank under him every time he goes to war! He gets a lot of luck in these situations.

2. The Max & Seb rivalry is getting more intense every couple of races it seems. I wonder if in 2019/2020 when Red Bull could be fighting for a title and Ferrari may not (just speculation), that Seb may be battling Max harder because of 'the past' and it could hurt Max in the long run.
I think the VET-VER rivalry is quite one sides, I don't think VER is really caring :P Both are causing small incidents up and down the grid.

It's nice to see the dynamic between HAM and VER off track. They are from such different backgrounds and age but they seems to have nice respectful and happy discussions right after the race.