2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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MatsNorway
MatsNorway
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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izzy wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:56 am
[
that'll be fine won't it. Get rid of the plank, add some nice venturi tunnels, dump the bendy cascade wings. Bring the huge nose in, would be nice, but anyway something to look forward to i think. Lose DRS even, or at some tracks perhaps
The plank will never be removed as it has a safety aspect. It denies the floor or future tunnels from being stalled when bottoming out for instance. But you could make the plank perhaps narrower/shorter all over or just in parts..

If you got big tunnels and the cars still needs wings with high down force to hit a desired lap time.. wings that obstruct close following you might need to strip weight and wing for the racing to improve.

If you have a target lap time that is.

Simply tuning down what is allowed with wings in some way works too ofc. just giving you a slower car.. lesser size and thickness of wings etc.

That or perhaps a combo with bigger chonkier tires. I really see no other options.
je suis charlie

A touch of genius is the simplest thing.


DRS is like supports on a bicycle[/size]

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FW17
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Keep the plank, it is only 10mm

Knock off that step in the floor which is 50mm on which the plank is mounted

izzy
izzy
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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MatsNorway wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:11 pm
izzy wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:56 am
[
that'll be fine won't it. Get rid of the plank, add some nice venturi tunnels, dump the bendy cascade wings. Bring the huge nose in, would be nice, but anyway something to look forward to i think. Lose DRS even, or at some tracks perhaps
The plank will never be removed as it has a safety aspect. It denies the floor or future tunnels from being stalled when bottoming out for instance. But you could make the plank perhaps narrower/shorter all over or just in parts..

If you got big tunnels and the cars still needs wings with high down force to hit a desired lap time.. wings that obstruct close following you might need to strip weight and wing for the racing to improve.

If you have a target lap time that is.

Simply tuning down what is allowed with wings in some way works too ofc. just giving you a slower car.. lesser size and thickness of wings etc.

That or perhaps a combo with bigger chonkier tires. I really see no other options.
Oh, I didn't realise the plank has a safety side to it, makes sense, tho I meant the whole step plane, 60mm total as @FW17 says. It doesn't need to be 60mm does it? Probably only a few mm is enough to prevent stalling.

i bet if they free up the floor downforce will increase massively, and free up the flat centre section of the front wing too and let them run the wing closer to the ground. Free up the tea tray. Raise the nose. It doesn't necessarily have to make more of a wake, and half or more of it is making the cars less sensitive to wake

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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izzy wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:42 pm

i could've mentioned some of the minimum weights tho couldn't I, like PU, MGUH, ES, car etc :-k
Those minimum weights were brought in to try to prevent a spending war on minimal gains in weight loss. There is also the issue of a required car weight that prevents the use of skinny/small drivers. The drivers were being pushed in to unhealthy weight loss/management routines in order to get car weight down.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

izzy
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:38 am
izzy wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:42 pm

i could've mentioned some of the minimum weights tho couldn't I, like PU, MGUH, ES, car etc :-k
Those minimum weights were brought in to try to prevent a spending war on minimal gains in weight loss. There is also the issue of a required car weight that prevents the use of skinny/small drivers. The drivers were being pushed in to unhealthy weight loss/management routines in order to get car weight down.
yes well there's a whole issue about whether these attempts to cut spending actually work at all, isn't there. I'd say the evidence is they don't, as there are thousands of them already and we have F1.5. I mean they all have only 25 hours in the wind tunnel/cfd and it doesn't bring them together noticeably. RP have started using the Mercedes nice new expensive tunnel and it's making a difference. We can't know how minimal the weight gains would be if teams were allowed to work on it. Batteries must have become lighter since 2014, for a start

Driver weight is accounted for already as they have their 80kg with the ballasted seat, and in any case the health thing could've been dealt with easily with skinfold measurements, it was just that big people tend to end up in charge and Ross & Co didn't like their ilk being excluded, Toto, Mattia... (yes yes before someone says Jean Todt :lol: )

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jjn9128
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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izzy wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:06 am
Oh, I didn't realise the plank has a safety side to it, makes sense, tho I meant the whole step plane, 60mm total as @FW17 says. It doesn't need to be 60mm does it? Probably only a few mm is enough to prevent stalling.

i bet if they free up the floor downforce will increase massively, and free up the flat centre section of the front wing too and let them run the wing closer to the ground. Free up the tea tray. Raise the nose. It doesn't necessarily have to make more of a wake, and half or more of it is making the cars less sensitive to wake
Plank was brought in mid-season 1994 then the step for 1995. All fia series have a step (exception is WEC but those rules are defined by the ACO). Different series have different step heights. So 50mm isn't set in stone. Eg it's 35mm in formula e. The plank is also 5/8mm thick in other series rather than 10. The Le Mans skid I like because it has skids to make a ground clearance but is domed to stop rollovers.
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"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

izzy
izzy
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:47 am
Plank was brought in mid-season 1994 then the step for 1995. All fia series have a step (exception is WEC but those rules are defined by the ACO). Different series have different step heights. So 50mm isn't set in stone. Eg it's 35mm in formula e. The plank is also 5/8mm thick in other series rather than 10. The Le Mans skid I like because it has skids to make a ground clearance but is domed to stop rollovers.
Ah. I was wondering why they didn't do something with it when they were trying to make the cars faster for 2017. Domed, yes that sounds perfect!

mzso
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:41 pm
the 2021 draft won't significantly increase the underfloor downforce % compared to now (~60-70% of total).
I'm highly doubtful of this statement. They massively increase the capabilities of the floor not that it can be shaped again. plus they mow down nasty aero elements from the overbody. And the rear wing is much reduced. The front wing is simplified even further.

mzso
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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izzy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:42 pm
i don't suppose they'll be satisfied with designing the brakes and a few other bits and pieces. I read, probably on AMuS, that atm there are 50 boxes defining the body/aero! 50!!
Yeah. There should be none. They should standardize the shape of the chassis and aero kits. So teams can focus development on parts that have value, instead of aero.

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jjn9128
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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mzso wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:19 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:41 pm
the 2021 draft won't significantly increase the underfloor downforce % compared to now (~60-70% of total).
I'm highly doubtful of this statement. They massively increase the capabilities of the floor not that it can be shaped again. plus they mow down nasty aero elements from the overbody. And the rear wing is much reduced. The front wing is simplified even further.
Simplified bits don't mean less downforce... the rear wing is actually slightly bigger (according to my measurements), just the endplates are smaller. The floor shape just means downforce is generated differently, not that there will be more of it. You've drunk the kool aid. Listened to the lies from the motorsport media and their ill informed blag-age too long! :lol: (<-- to emphasize the last bit was a joke!!)
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

izzy
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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mzso wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:22 pm
They should standardize the shape of the chassis and aero kits. So teams can focus development on parts that have value, instead of aero.
The great thing about the aero is we can SEE it, mostly. we don't get to see anything about the ICE, electric, fuel, tyres, everything else apart from the suspension

I don't think they should standardise very much at all, but certainly not aero. if you standardised the aero you may as well give up the whole F1 idea and go spec and be cheap and ordinary, and watch the oems go and start their new prototype series

trinidefender
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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mzso wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:22 pm
izzy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:42 pm
i don't suppose they'll be satisfied with designing the brakes and a few other bits and pieces. I read, probably on AMuS, that atm there are 50 boxes defining the body/aero! 50!!
Yeah. There should be none. They should standardize the shape of the chassis and aero kits. So teams can focus development on parts that have value, instead of aero.
If this is what you want then why not watch the plethora of other spec series classes? F1 has been all about reducing drag since its inception and aerodynamic downforce since about 1968. It became what it is today precisely BECAUSE it is known as the pinnacle of motorsports with aerodynamic innovation being a key factor in this.

I usually like what Ross Brawn says but his latest comments how fans don't know the difference is rather myopic in my view. Regardless if come people can't tell the difference, they know in their brains that the engineering and design of each car is different and that adds to the aura of F1 cars being about the best engineering talent pools.

People thought this season was going to be terrible but so far it's been one of the best seasons that I can remember in a long time. Imagine how close it would be if there was a reasonable budget cap in place and the prize money was more evenly distributed. I'm willing to bet that the entire grid will be like what F1.5 is colloquially known as.

Frankly I'm worried that they are biting off more than they can chew with the 2021 regulations. Think of the engineering challenge of this:
- new 18" tyres means a lot of current suspension knowledge will be ripped up and thrown away
- underbody aero meaning that a lot of resources will be changed in aerodynamic research and current knowledge thrown away
- and crucially all done in a limited time frame.

Lastly there is one reason that I think a delay in the new aerodynamic regulations might actually be a good thing. Think back to when the 2014 PU was implemented. There was such a gap between Mercedes and all other PU manufacturers as they had outspent everybody by miles on its development. After that, Ferrari and Renault found it very hard to catch up due to the token system.

We are having a repeat of the same situation. There is unrestricted spending right now. The largest teams will spend millions more than everyone else before the cost cap comes into place. Get a huge advantage for 2021 and because there is then a cost cap, the smaller teams will find it almost impossible to catch up season on season.

If we have a year of cost cap regulations before the introduction of the aerodynamic regulations then it will stop the big 3 from being able to dump money into the future designs and gaining an initial advantage.

MatsNorway
MatsNorway
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Try to keep politics out of this thread. It is about Aero. not budget caps. F1 have some of the best engineers in the world. I am sure they can manage.

ofc. they will make more downforce from the underbody, and trim the wings. That is the whole point surely?
Tunnels are less sensitive to turbulence.
je suis charlie

A touch of genius is the simplest thing.


DRS is like supports on a bicycle[/size]

mzso
mzso
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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trinidefender wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:49 pm
mzso wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:22 pm
izzy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:42 pm
i don't suppose they'll be satisfied with designing the brakes and a few other bits and pieces. I read, probably on AMuS, that atm there are 50 boxes defining the body/aero! 50!!
Yeah. There should be none. They should standardize the shape of the chassis and aero kits. So teams can focus development on parts that have value, instead of aero.
If this is what you want then why not watch the plethora of other spec series classes? F1 has been all about reducing drag since its inception and aerodynamic downforce since about 1968. It became what it is today precisely BECAUSE it is known as the pinnacle of motorsports with aerodynamic innovation being a key factor in this.
It has been about artificially more convoluted aero designs since the eighties, due to changing and tightening restrictings. Aero developments don't serve any useful purpose anymore.

trinidefender
trinidefender
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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mzso wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:37 pm
trinidefender wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:49 pm
mzso wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:22 pm


Yeah. There should be none. They should standardize the shape of the chassis and aero kits. So teams can focus development on parts that have value, instead of aero.
If this is what you want then why not watch the plethora of other spec series classes? F1 has been all about reducing drag since its inception and aerodynamic downforce since about 1968. It became what it is today precisely BECAUSE it is known as the pinnacle of motorsports with aerodynamic innovation being a key factor in this.
It has been about artificially more convoluted aero designs since the eighties, due to changing and tightening restrictings. Aero developments don't serve any useful purpose anymore.
They never served any useful purpose other than pushing the limits of car performance so I fail to see your point.

You also completely ignored my other main point, if a spec aerodynamic series is what you want then why not watch one of those instead of changing the status quo that is already there in F1 of aerodynamic development?