Synthetic Fuel

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strad
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Synthetic Fuel

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Chase Carey says F1 may start using synthetic fuel before the end of the season.
Just what is synthetic fuel anyway?
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rscsr
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Re: Synthetic Fuel

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strad wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:43 am
Chase Carey says F1 may start using synthetic fuel before the end of the season.
Just what is synthetic fuel anyway?
normal fuel is produced by distillation of crude oil. Synthetic fuel would be produced by cracking of longer HC chains or polymerisation of shorter i.e. reforming natural gas.
Wikipedia Synthetic Fuel

NL_Fer
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Re: Synthetic Fuel

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synthetic fuel can be any fuel created from coal, gas or biological feedstock/waste. Using a chemical process to convert into a liquid which can replace, diesel, jetfuel or gasoline.

But from an environmental point of view, F1 should rule out coal and gas, because they are fossil fuels and still have a carbon footprint. They increase the amount of CO2 in the air.

Ideal would be to use synhetic fuels, only created from biological waste or catched CO2 gas, using renewable power source, like solar electricity or windpower.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Synthetic Fuel

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though using such synthetic fuel is of course a trick
any renewable energy would be better used to replace coal burning
ie F1 would be helping society more by using renewable energy to do that

the WW2 Luftwaffe used a lot of synthetic aviation gasoline made by the Fischer-Tropsch process
though it was made from coal it could today be made from biomass (and renewable energy)

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Re: Synthetic Fuel

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:52 am
though using such synthetic fuel is of course a trick
any renewable energy would be better used to replace coal burning
ie F1 would be helping society more by using renewable energy to do that

the WW2 Luftwaffe used a lot of synthetic aviation gasoline made by the Fischer-Tropsch process
though it was made from coal it could today be made from biomass (and renewable energy)
F1, Chase Carrey is talking about renewable source, carbon-neutral fuel. So i guess coal-to-liquid is out of the question.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Synthetic Fuel

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the F-T process is useable with biomass feedstock (it doesn't need coal)

F1 cars currently have a mandatory 5.7% biofuel content
for this they eg Honda use bio-butanol
and bio-butanol can be the feedstock for making gasoline type fuel
(this is legal for the mandatory biofuel content if commercial intent is shown)

butanol has iirc about 80% of the mass-specific energy of normal gasoline (say about 75% of F1's pseudo-gasoline')
but if (bio) butanol is used as feedstock to make gasoline the issue of increased fuel weight and bulk goes away
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Synthetic Fuel

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Power-to-Liquid
CO + H2 -> Hydrocarbons

All you need is:
Water + C02 + Energy = Fuel

Take CO2 out of the air or from biomass and energy from renewable sources and you're CO2 neutral.

Manoah2u
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Re: Synthetic Fuel

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MtthsMlw wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:42 am
Power-to-Liquid
CO + H2 -> Hydrocarbons

All you need is:
Water + C02 + Energy = Fuel

Take CO2 out of the air or from biomass and energy from renewable sources and you're CO2 neutral.
this.

and introduce this CO2 to a tree field neirby and see nature flourish.
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Big Tea
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Re: Synthetic Fuel

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It may be a stupid remark, but is not all fuel(as we are using the term here) synthetic?
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rscsr
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Re: Synthetic Fuel

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Big Tea wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:05 am
It may be a stupid remark, but is not all fuel(as we are using the term here) synthetic?
the difference is normal fuel is seperated physically from the other parts of crude oil by destillation. Just using the different boiling points of the different parts that exist in crude oil. If you use a chemical process, i.e. cracking longer HC chains, it would be synthetic.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Synthetic Fuel

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rscsr wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:03 pm
.... If you use a chemical process, i.e. cracking longer HC chains, it would be synthetic.
not so, sorry
cracking is standard - it has been used everywhere for about 70 years
cracking is necessary - fractional distillation alone would give insufficient gasoline and too much of everything else
nobody has a tank of gasoline which isn't largely cracked and/or reformed content

your Wiki link on synthetic fuel doesn't seem to mention cracking of crude oil
whatever synthetic means it doesn't mean cracked (or reformed) stuff that came out of an oil well
I would bet on this

same for synthetic oils - these are typically ketones or esters not oils

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rscsr
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Re: Synthetic Fuel

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:08 pm
rscsr wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:03 pm
.... If you use a chemical process, i.e. cracking longer HC chains, it would be synthetic.
not so, sorry
cracking is standard - it has been used everywhere for about 70 years
cracking is necessary - fractional distillation alone would give insufficient gasoline and too much of everything else
nobody has a tank of gasoline which isn't largely cracked and/or reformed content

your Wiki link on synthetic fuel doesn't seem to mention cracking of crude oil
whatever synthetic means it doesn't mean cracked (or reformed) stuff that came out of an oil well
I would bet on this

same for synthetic oils - these are typically ketones or esters not oils
only because it is used forever doesn't mean it's not synthetic

directly from the article:
Synthetic fuels are produced by the chemical process of conversion.

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strad
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Re: Synthetic Fuel

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so this: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/08/ca ... standards/
unless you're using solar, wind or hydro to make the electricity it's a joke.
.
What does this do to the idea that they use fuel that is pump available? Something I have always said is a lie.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Just_a_fan
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Re: Synthetic Fuel

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Unless they're going to force every team vehicle and the cargo aircraft used to ferry the cars etc around the globe, to use synthetic fuel, it's all just window dressing - "yes, we're carbon neutral" means "the cars are carbon neutral but the huge infrastructure behind them isn't".
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johnny comelately
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Re: Synthetic Fuel

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Now we are talking :wink: (a little belated but nonetheless)
https://www.decanter.com/wine-news/fuel ... rs-464238/

TotalEnergies said its new bioethanol fuel, produced using leftovers from the French wine industry, would be introduced for racing cars at next season’s FIA World Endurance Championship.

Named ‘Excellium Racing 100’, drivers could see their cars powered by the ‘renewable’ fuel at the renowned 24 Hours of Le Mans race in 2022.

Motorsport’s governing body, the Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA), has backed efforts to develop more sustainable fuel and power sources for racing cars, including in Formula 1.

‘This fuel should allow an immediate reduction of at least 65% of the racing cars’ CO2 emissions,’ said TotalEnergies, which is official fuel supplier to the 24 Hours of Le Mans race organiser, Automobile Club de l’Ouest.

Made from leftover materials from winemaking, such as wine lees and grape pomace, the group said the production process involves ‘industrial fermentation, distillation then dehydration’.

This base, it said, ‘is then blended with ETBE (Ethyl Tertio Butyl Ether), itself a by-product made from ethanol, and with several performance additives’.

Formula 1 has said it intends to be ‘net zero carbon’ by 2030.

Several research projects have looked at the possibility of using wine waste to create ‘renewable’ fuel.

The concept also gained a higher profile back in 2008, when it emerged that Prince Charles in the UK had converted his Aston Martin to run on fuel made from English wine waste and whey.