Ferrari SF1000

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
CRazyLemon
CRazyLemon
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Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:22 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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LM10 wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:25 pm
Manfer wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:17 pm
CRazyLemon wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:12 pm
Based on this engine freeze and token system, is Ferrari able to do engine development the entire year in order to introduce a new engine for 2021 or are they limited on how much they can change? As I understand it, the token system is just for chassis changes. If they're limited on engine development, then surely Ferrari are pretty much stuck with a sub par engine till 2025?
They can develop as much as they want. I believe they have to use tokens to introduce the updates and these have to decided the previous year. So next year's engine will be better than the current one, but what we do not know is how badly the TD's have affected the development. If Ferrari has to investigate new processes/ideas, then its going to be painful few years.
Good thing of Ferrari being embarrassingly slow this season is that they kind of have 2 years time to come up with a very good PU.
2022 is the season they need to aim for regarding development. Wether 2021’s PU will be strong or not won’t make a big difference due to Ferrari being that far behind with their current chassis anyway. I’d put almost the entire budget into PU development now because that will be on the car until 2025.

As a Ferrari fan I’ve written off next season, so should do others as well. People need to be patient and strong now. Only a painful 2020-2021 period would mean a competitive Ferrari from 2022 on. If Ferrari tries to push and make their fans be happier this and next season, they will do a big mistake. Just focus on 2022. I’d even happily accept them being dead end last this season in order to have more wind tunnel and CFD time.
I have tickets to next year's Spa and Monza races, hard to write off the season with that in mind. As far as the engine is concerned, as much as I wasn't sure about the amount of development they could do I am aware there's only one upgrade allowed next year during the season and then an upgrade for 2022 and that is it. I don't think you can introduce a completely new engine at any stage. Also if you cannot do a complete overhaul in one shot, you are forced to introduce as big an increment as possible. I'm try to work out how big the 2021 increment is allowed to be?

Harvester
Harvester
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Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:14 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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CRazyLemon wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:11 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:25 pm
Manfer wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:17 pm


They can develop as much as they want. I believe they have to use tokens to introduce the updates and these have to decided the previous year. So next year's engine will be better than the current one, but what we do not know is how badly the TD's have affected the development. If Ferrari has to investigate new processes/ideas, then its going to be painful few years.
Good thing of Ferrari being embarrassingly slow this season is that they kind of have 2 years time to come up with a very good PU.
2022 is the season they need to aim for regarding development. Wether 2021’s PU will be strong or not won’t make a big difference due to Ferrari being that far behind with their current chassis anyway. I’d put almost the entire budget into PU development now because that will be on the car until 2025.

As a Ferrari fan I’ve written off next season, so should do others as well. People need to be patient and strong now. Only a painful 2020-2021 period would mean a competitive Ferrari from 2022 on. If Ferrari tries to push and make their fans be happier this and next season, they will do a big mistake. Just focus on 2022. I’d even happily accept them being dead end last this season in order to have more wind tunnel and CFD time.
I have tickets to next year's Spa and Monza races, hard to write off the season with that in mind. As far as the engine is concerned, as much as I wasn't sure about the amount of development they could do I am aware there's only one upgrade allowed next year during the season and then an upgrade for 2022 and that is it. I don't think you can introduce a completely new engine at any stage. Also if you cannot do a complete overhaul in one shot, you are forced to introduce as big an increment as possible. I'm try to work out how big the 2021 increment is allowed to be?
People I think you are just making too much out of this development freeze thing. Even if they could build new engine starting from scrach you think they would match mercedes power in 2022 with completely new engine.

They have plently of opportunities to upgrade their engine and I don't think development freeze will be a big factor there.
I think they even like that its there because now they can say it's not allowed to upgrade enough so that's why they are stuck they can put blame on that.

In reality even if they are allowed to change and upgrade whatever they want they know they definitely can not catch mercedes next year and even after that it is questionable because it is obvious that they took wrong development path and also complete team is a mess since Marchione died.

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Blackout
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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A nice pic
Image

bruno958
bruno958
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Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:37 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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News from Italy....

Enrico Cardile promoted from GT to Head a new group called 'Performance Development', focusing mainly on aerodynamics. Reporting to Enrico will be Rory Byrne and David Sanchez.
According to Binotto,' this will be a difficult journey with the possibility of many disappointments in terms of performance and results. The end goal is to return to be protagonists in this sport.'

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JordanMugen
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Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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bruno958 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:01 am
News from Italy....

Enrico Cardile promoted from GT to Head a new group called 'Performance Development', focusing mainly on aerodynamics. Reporting to Enrico will be Rory Byrne and David Sanchez.
According to Binotto,' this will be a difficult journey with the possibility of many disappointments in terms of performance and results. The end goal is to return to be protagonists in this sport.'
:shock:

Rory Byrne as consultant?

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nico5
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Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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JordanMugen wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:28 am
bruno958 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:01 am
News from Italy....

Enrico Cardile promoted from GT to Head a new group called 'Performance Development', focusing mainly on aerodynamics. Reporting to Enrico will be Rory Byrne and David Sanchez.
According to Binotto,' this will be a difficult journey with the possibility of many disappointments in terms of performance and results. The end goal is to return to be protagonists in this sport.'
:shock:

Rory Byrne as consultant?
As he has been for some time now...

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
561
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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nico5 wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:55 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:28 am
bruno958 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:01 am
News from Italy....

Enrico Cardile promoted from GT to Head a new group called 'Performance Development', focusing mainly on aerodynamics. Reporting to Enrico will be Rory Byrne and David Sanchez.
According to Binotto,' this will be a difficult journey with the possibility of many disappointments in terms of performance and results. The end goal is to return to be protagonists in this sport.'
:shock:

Rory Byrne as consultant?
As he has been for some time now...
I can't help but think that maybe this is part of Ferrari's problem. They have a team working on the car but then also have people like Byrne having input. As Byrne has a long history with Ferrari, and had some success of course, one could see the situation where Byrne "sticks his oar in" and causes the team to doubt what they're doing. In effect, you'd have the head of aero and the consultant wanting different things.

Mercedes and RB don't have this type of set up, do they? They have clearly defined roles and lines of accountability so everyone knows who's doing what.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Big Tea
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:17 am
nico5 wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:55 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:28 am

:shock:

Rory Byrne as consultant?
As he has been for some time now...
I can't help but think that maybe this is part of Ferrari's problem. They have a team working on the car but then also have people like Byrne having input. As Byrne has a long history with Ferrari, and had some success of course, one could see the situation where Byrne "sticks his oar in" and causes the team to doubt what they're doing. In effect, you'd have the head of aero and the consultant wanting different things.

Mercedes and RB don't have this type of set up, do they? They have clearly defined roles and lines of accountability so everyone knows who's doing what.
At Ferrari it so often seems to be a case of too many cooks. Is seems the chosen teams are never trusted and need someone to check on them. How they feel must upset the ethic without the interference. Williams went the same for a wile.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

hichamo
hichamo
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Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:01 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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Hello everyone,

According to f1 news , Rory Byrne won't be a consultant, he was invited to re-imagine an SF1000B version.
https://f1i.auto-moto.com/infos/cest-la ... rescousse/

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Blackout
1329
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:12 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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The article is full of BS (not a surprise it's written by Van Vliet who's only good when he writes about f1, finances or history)

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El Scorchio
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Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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Yes, I think structurally they need an overhaul. It feels like quite a disorganised business.

They won’t have success against someone like Mercedes until they get their house in order. You need your own knives razor sharp before you go to a knife fight.

Genuinely it sounds like (what I believe Binotto is saying- although I’m not sure just creating another new department is the answer here...) is the best approach. Short term pain for long term gain. No point in rebuilding the castle on the same sinking sand. Tear it down and start fresh on solid ground, even if it means a frustrating couple of years to endure.

Forget 2021 and put everything toward 2022. No point in releasing two ponies. Best to release one donkey followed by a stallion.

Not sure if I could get any more crappy analogies in this post if I tried....

Xwang
Xwang
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Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:12 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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El Scorchio wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:58 am
Yes, I think structurally they need an overhaul. It feels like quite a disorganised business.

They won’t have success against someone like Mercedes until they get their house in order. You need your own knives razor sharp before you go to a knife fight.

Genuinely it sounds like (what I believe Binotto is saying- although I’m not sure just creating another new department is the answer here...) is the best approach. Short term pain for long term gain. No point in rebuilding the castle on the same sinking sand. Tear it down and start fresh on solid ground, even if it means a frustrating couple of years to endure.

Forget 2021 and put everything toward 2022. No point in releasing two ponies. Best to release one donkey followed by a stallion.

Not sure if I could get any more crappy analogies in this post if I tried....
In my opinion while I agree with you that it is not possible for Ferrari to fight for this or the next season championships, I think that in a competitive technological sport like this they shouldn't completely write off championships but instead they should use them to verify and improve their working methods and internal structure so that to avoid arriving at the start of 2022 cycle with "correlation issues" and so on.
Moreover the engine rules will be the same so it is necessary to improve it starting as soon as possible.
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

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El Scorchio
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Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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Xwang wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:04 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:58 am
Yes, I think structurally they need an overhaul. It feels like quite a disorganised business.

They won’t have success against someone like Mercedes until they get their house in order. You need your own knives razor sharp before you go to a knife fight.

Genuinely it sounds like (what I believe Binotto is saying- although I’m not sure just creating another new department is the answer here...) is the best approach. Short term pain for long term gain. No point in rebuilding the castle on the same sinking sand. Tear it down and start fresh on solid ground, even if it means a frustrating couple of years to endure.

Forget 2021 and put everything toward 2022. No point in releasing two ponies. Best to release one donkey followed by a stallion.

Not sure if I could get any more crappy analogies in this post if I tried....
In my opinion while I agree with you that it is not possible for Ferrari to fight for this or the next season championships, I think that in a competitive technological sport like this they shouldn't completely write off championships but instead they should use them to verify and improve their working methods and internal structure so that to avoid arriving at the start of 2022 cycle with "correlation issues" and so on.
Moreover the engine rules will be the same so it is necessary to improve it starting as soon as possible.
I don’t see any point in them wasting time on 2020 or 2021 where realistically they aren’t going to build a winning car or learn anything of use for beyond then. I agree they should use the time to overhaul the team and working practice and put new processes and structures in place but engine aside, anything on R+D or development for pre 2022 is just a waste of time and effort given where they are now. Come out swinging with the new regs.

It’s good Binotto has said that as a statement of intent. However, I wonder if the senior management will be ok with this or just act short sighted and remove him before they start seeing it through. IMO it should start with Binotto. They need to ask if he’s really the man to carry on in his current role with all those responsibilities. IMO they need a Wolff or Horner. Someone who doesn’t have direct technical responsibilities but just concentrated on oraganising and playing the game.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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Wolf or Horner would drown on the first day unless they push back on the owners and ask for more help. Binotto, as said by many experts, is alone, he is a one man management team, but not for fault if his own. The new owners set it that way. Maybe micromanaging? They need to give Binotto the power to fully restructure. Horner has Newey and Helmut and Matechitz. Wolff has a whole load of people for support too. Todt had, Brawn, Bryne, and Monty as air support. Binotto is alone. Even the new structure put forward doesnt address this issue. I see failure in their future if Binotto doesn't get at least two running mates to manage this team. Sporting, politicking and technical. One man cannot do it alone.
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kalinka
kalinka
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Location: Hungary

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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Yep, even Wolf had Lauda on his side. I think he had a very important role at the beginning. I'm sure he kept everybody honest. He achieved everything and he had nothing to lose, so nobody could pressurize him to play by some big company rules. I think Ferrari needs somebody like Lauda, an independent authority. I'm not sure it's even possible in current Ferrari organization - it feels like everybody just plays "I will defend my own corner and see what happens".
EDIT : this conversation should be in the team thread for long time now