Electrical Noise in F1

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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PlatinumZealot
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Electrical Noise in F1

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F1 cars seem to be quite succeptible to electrical noise don't they?

It normally seems to be gearboxes that face the biggest consequences of corrupted electrical signals, possibly due to the rapid signaling required. One of the most famous occurences of this was the temporary gearbox failure of Lewis Hamiltons MP4-22 in the Brazil season ender that thoerised to be caused by underground cables or nearby railway lines. There have been many other occurences in other teams as well, the latest ones being Mercedes gearbox signal degradtion on both cars and likely Max Verstappen's engine signal breakdown in Austria.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/07/07/fau ... ed-friday/

I'm not an electrical engineer, but there are commonly accepted best practices to maintain signal integrity in high speed communication systems. Is it that the F1 engineers are designing on the limit to save weight or is there some other phenomena like eddy currents in the carbon structure of the car, or the MGUH magnetic field interference??
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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As I am no electrical engineer I hope that an electrical engineer can explain what riding the kerbs which stresses the chassis more have to do with build-up of electrical noise that starts to interfere with gearbox?. As a mechanical engineer I can understand the stresses the chassis undergoes when riding the kerbs, and as the gearbox ‘outer casing’ is a structural component part of the chassis it has to absorb the extra stresses of riding the kerbs.

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Big Tea
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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Did Danny Ric also have a problem on Anderson bridge where signals were dropping his gearbox out?

I am an Electronics hobbyist and the first thing that goes in after a power-supply is RFI interference blocking.

They obviously know what they are doing, but can only prepare for what they think they will meet.
Anything metallic moving in a magnetic field produces a pulse, so it is quite possibly the frequency of the curbs
Last edited by Big Tea on Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Holm86
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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I think the sensor problems this weekend was because of kerb vibrations.

I can't imagine they're not running properly shielded wires.

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Big Tea
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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Holm86 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:46 pm
I think the sensor problems this weekend was because of kerb vibrations.

I can't imagine they're not running properly shielded wires.
The spikes could be produced internally so they can not be shielded only filtered. If they are at a fequency being usedn they can not filter them out without blocking what they use.
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Tim.Wright
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:42 pm
F1 cars seem to be quite succeptible to electrical noise don't they?

It normally seems to be gearboxes that face the biggest consequences of corrupted electrical signals, possibly due to the rapid signaling required. One of the most famous occurences of this was the temporary gearbox failure of Lewis Hamiltons MP4-22 in the Brazil season ender that thoerised to be caused by underground cables or nearby railway lines. There have been many other occurences in other teams as well, the latest ones being Mercedes gearbox signal degradtion on both cars and likely Max Verstappen's engine signal breakdown in Austria.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/07/07/fau ... ed-friday/

I'm not an electrical engineer, but there are commonly accepted best practices to maintain signal integrity in high speed communication systems. Is it that the F1 engineers are designing on the limit to save weight or is there some other phenomena like eddy currents in the carbon structure of the car, or the MGUH magnetic field interference??
What makes you think the problem was electrical noise?

Seems to me like the curb strikes were causing mechanical damage to the sensors or it's connection.
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LM10
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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Tim.Wright wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:06 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:42 pm
F1 cars seem to be quite succeptible to electrical noise don't they?

It normally seems to be gearboxes that face the biggest consequences of corrupted electrical signals, possibly due to the rapid signaling required. One of the most famous occurences of this was the temporary gearbox failure of Lewis Hamiltons MP4-22 in the Brazil season ender that thoerised to be caused by underground cables or nearby railway lines. There have been many other occurences in other teams as well, the latest ones being Mercedes gearbox signal degradtion on both cars and likely Max Verstappen's engine signal breakdown in Austria.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/07/07/fau ... ed-friday/

I'm not an electrical engineer, but there are commonly accepted best practices to maintain signal integrity in high speed communication systems. Is it that the F1 engineers are designing on the limit to save weight or is there some other phenomena like eddy currents in the carbon structure of the car, or the MGUH magnetic field interference??
What makes you think the problem was electrical noise?

Seems to me like the curb strikes were causing mechanical damage to the sensors or it's connection.
It's Mercedes saying it.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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They are talking about the effect of the problem not the cause. If a cable or sensor is mechanically damaged, you get a noisy output.

That doesn't mean the cause is electrical interference.
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nzjrs
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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Tim.Wright wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:30 pm
They are talking about the effect of the problem not the cause. If a cable or sensor is mechanically damaged, you get a noisy output.

That doesn't mean the cause is electrical interference.
Normally I (electrical engineer) would agree that 'electrical noise' is about as descriptive as 'computer trouble', but Andrew Shovlin is oddly specific
“It’s basically a build-up of electrical noise that starts to interfere with the various systems,”
I wouldn't describe vibration as having a 'build-up' effect, unless they are running some active and adaptive filtering strategy. Even then I wouldn't say 'build-up' really.

Could it be plausible they are talking about electrovibration / electrostatic charge of vibrating elements / sensors?

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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I've had sensors fail from abuse and the tell-tale build up of noise in my signals is exactly how it manifests itself. Especially load and acceleration sensors.

When that starts to happen the sensor is usually junk and needs to be repaired. It's rarely a simple shielding issue.
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Holm86
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:48 pm
Holm86 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:46 pm
I think the sensor problems this weekend was because of kerb vibrations.

I can't imagine they're not running properly shielded wires.
The spikes could be produced internally so they can not be shielded only filtered. If they are at a fequency being usedn they can not filter them out without blocking what they use.
Yes, but I was talking about external noise, as I guess that's what the post suggested

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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Tim.Wright wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:58 pm
I've had sensors fail from abuse and the tell-tale build up of noise in my signals is exactly how it manifests itself. Especially load and acceleration sensors.

When that starts to happen the sensor is usually junk and needs to be repaired. It's rarely a simple shielding issue.
It is interesting that Shovlin says :


Here are some clues...
“We’ve had recurrent issues over the course of Saturday and going into the race we were expecting it because it seems to be a feature of the model. So at the moment if we build the car and run it, this problem will appear at some point. It’s a question of how soon.”
So here it seems it is one type of component. Didn't say if it was a control board or model of sensor though...
“It’s basically a build-up of electrical noise that starts to interfere with the various systems,” Shovlin explained. “So with Valtteri we saw this around halfway through the race, got progressively worse, with Lewis it appeared later.
“But it’s electrical noise that’s then affecting a lot of different things.”
This is interesting.

It's a build up. I assume this thing is not constant to the track. It is increasing in intensity as times goes on. Getting worse and worse as something... Degrades.. Or compounds.. Or intensifies...

It affects various systems...
Meaning it is not something that goes through the signal processor for each input. Which would filter out that noise.. It is a noise that affects either the entire Control board... Or a noise that affects various sensors in a location. Suggesting an external source of the noise...?
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Tim.Wright
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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Sounds like a load or position sensor dying and sending a corupt signal to every system that uses sensor.

Signal processing can't filter out the characteristics of a dead sensor and make it come back to life.
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Big Tea
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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Tim.Wright wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:39 pm
Sounds like a load or position sensor dying and sending a corupt signal to every system that uses sensor.

Signal processing can't filter out the characteristics of a dead sensor and make it come back to life.
You think it could be a position sensor that can not pinpoint its position due to vibration?
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Tim.Wright
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:08 pm
You think it could be a position sensor that can not pinpoint its position due to vibration?
I think it's most likely a sensor and/or it's associated cabling that was damaged due to vibration and therefore gave erronous readings. I've had a number of cases with damaged sensors which showed a slow degredation of the sensor signal over the course of the day until it was just outputting white noise.
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