Torque sensors and powerlimits

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
NL_Fer
NL_Fer
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Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Torque sensors and powerlimits

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What would be the result of installing torque sensors and limit maximum power of the engine?

Engine manufacturers can still develop for fuel and ERS efficiency, but absolute peak power would be equal.

I guess it would minimize the influence of the powerunit during qualifing and shifting more to chassis and driver skill.

And could change the the startgrid for a little more exitement.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Torque sensors and powerlimits

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May as well have a spec PU if you're going to do that. Why would an engine manufacturer "compete" in a formula that prevents them from competing?
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Xwang
Xwang
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Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:12 am

Re: Torque sensors and powerlimits

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:52 am
May as well have a spec PU if you're going to do that. Why would an engine manufacturer "compete" in a formula that prevents them from competing?
Because they could improve combustion efficiency, ERS management logics and so on and still be competitive.
At the moment the only way to do so is to do a spend race with Mercedes starting with years of delays and having to learn how to be sure that nobody comes and look at what are you doing and spending since next years and following ones rules pretend to limit how much you spend and how much hours you runs engine on bench test (but the only way to police that is by whistleblowers).
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

stevesingo
stevesingo
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Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:28 pm

Re: Torque sensors and powerlimits

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Xwang wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:34 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:52 am
May as well have a spec PU if you're going to do that. Why would an engine manufacturer "compete" in a formula that prevents them from competing?
Because they could improve combustion efficiency, ERS management logics and so on and still be competitive.
At the moment the only way to do so is to do a spend race with Mercedes starting with years of delays and having to learn how to be sure that nobody comes and look at what are you doing and spending since next years and following ones rules pretend to limit how much you spend and how much hours you runs engine on bench test (but the only way to police that is by whistleblowers).
Do you not think they are doing exactly that under the current regulations? Those PU manufacturers who are better at just that produce more power through efficiency.

In your proposed context all PUs will have the same power, so the performance differentiator will be how much fuel they start the race with.

Xwang
Xwang
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Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:12 am

Re: Torque sensors and powerlimits

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stevesingo wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:18 am
Xwang wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:34 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:52 am
May as well have a spec PU if you're going to do that. Why would an engine manufacturer "compete" in a formula that prevents them from competing?
Because they could improve combustion efficiency, ERS management logics and so on and still be competitive.
At the moment the only way to do so is to do a spend race with Mercedes starting with years of delays and having to learn how to be sure that nobody comes and look at what are you doing and spending since next years and following ones rules pretend to limit how much you spend and how much hours you runs engine on bench test (but the only way to police that is by whistleblowers).
Do you not think they are doing exactly that under the current regulations? Those PU manufacturers who are better at just that produce more power through efficiency.

In your proposed context all PUs will have the same power, so the performance differentiator will be how much fuel they start the race with.
IMHO actual rules being fuel flow limited force every manufacturer to improve combustion efficiency, but also to exploit every possible grey area available to improve the energy content of the fuel itself.
Moreover these last few percent of efficiency gains are extremely expensive and, being gained with more or less different kinds of trickeries, probably not so useful as a research basis for the automotive sector (what I mean is that probably a lot of newer concept are optimal on the basis of the F1 rules, but they would have never been used in a unconstrained or differently constrained environment like the more general automotive sector).
So I think that adding a max power limit could improve the situation because it will relax a bit the hard bond given by the pursuit of the maximum efficiency and will also enable FIA to better police what the manufacturers are doing (the PU would become a sort of black box with a maximum FF entering in it and a maximum power exiting, with the additional benefit to be able to check that the power output is directly related to the power request made by the pilot through the throttle pedal).
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

stevesingo
stevesingo
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Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:28 pm

Re: Torque sensors and powerlimits

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Xwang wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:45 am
stevesingo wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:18 am
Xwang wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:34 pm


Because they could improve combustion efficiency, ERS management logics and so on and still be competitive.
At the moment the only way to do so is to do a spend race with Mercedes starting with years of delays and having to learn how to be sure that nobody comes and look at what are you doing and spending since next years and following ones rules pretend to limit how much you spend and how much hours you runs engine on bench test (but the only way to police that is by whistleblowers).
Do you not think they are doing exactly that under the current regulations? Those PU manufacturers who are better at just that produce more power through efficiency.

In your proposed context all PUs will have the same power, so the performance differentiator will be how much fuel they start the race with.
IMHO actual rules being fuel flow limited force every manufacturer to improve combustion efficiency, but also to exploit every possible grey area available to improve the energy content of the fuel itself.
Moreover these last few percent of efficiency gains are extremely expensive and, being gained with more or less different kinds of trickeries, probably not so useful as a research basis for the automotive sector (what I mean is that probably a lot of newer concept are optimal on the basis of the F1 rules, but they would have never been used in a unconstrained or differently constrained environment like the more general automotive sector).
So I think that adding a max power limit could improve the situation because it will relax a bit the hard bond given by the pursuit of the maximum efficiency and will also enable FIA to better police what the manufacturers are doing (the PU would become a sort of black box with a maximum FF entering in it and a maximum power exiting, with the additional benefit to be able to check that the power output is directly related to the power request made by the pilot through the throttle pedal).
I disagree. The better (better funded) PU manufacturers will just use the R&D budget to leverage the next highest performance differentiator. They would likely still push for efficiency to reduce fuel consumption thus reducing start weigh of the car. The advantage will still be there.

Xwang
Xwang
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Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:12 am

Re: Torque sensors and powerlimits

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stevesingo wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:47 pm
Xwang wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:45 am
stevesingo wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:18 am


Do you not think they are doing exactly that under the current regulations? Those PU manufacturers who are better at just that produce more power through efficiency.

In your proposed context all PUs will have the same power, so the performance differentiator will be how much fuel they start the race with.
IMHO actual rules being fuel flow limited force every manufacturer to improve combustion efficiency, but also to exploit every possible grey area available to improve the energy content of the fuel itself.
Moreover these last few percent of efficiency gains are extremely expensive and, being gained with more or less different kinds of trickeries, probably not so useful as a research basis for the automotive sector (what I mean is that probably a lot of newer concept are optimal on the basis of the F1 rules, but they would have never been used in a unconstrained or differently constrained environment like the more general automotive sector).
So I think that adding a max power limit could improve the situation because it will relax a bit the hard bond given by the pursuit of the maximum efficiency and will also enable FIA to better police what the manufacturers are doing (the PU would become a sort of black box with a maximum FF entering in it and a maximum power exiting, with the additional benefit to be able to check that the power output is directly related to the power request made by the pilot through the throttle pedal).
I disagree. The better (better funded) PU manufacturers will just use the R&D budget to leverage the next highest performance differentiator. They would likely still push for efficiency to reduce fuel consumption thus reducing start weigh of the car. The advantage will still be there.
I agree with you, but that next highest performance differentiator should give less advantage (otherwise it would already be the manufacturer main goal, do you agree?) and probably it would have a worst ratio between advantage and dollar spent and so there would still be difference between competitors, but it should be less than now.

In any case it would be interesting to have such a sensor installed and monitored (without a maximum power limit) and the power output made available to the public as at the moment is RPM and speed).
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

Ringleheim
Ringleheim
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Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:02 am

Re: Torque sensors and powerlimits

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Torque sensors and power limits!? That's a terrible idea.

Although we are close to being there now!

For some reason, the FIA thinks the path forward is to limit development in all areas of the car except aerodynamics, such that we now have a racing series where competition is driven by how good your aero guys are, how good your wind tunnel is, and how much time you spend it making little bits and pieces to fit on the car from one track to the next.

I have no idea why anyone thinks this is good for the sport, or anything for that matter.

It has ZERO relevance to the outside world or the automotive industry.

I'd love to see a lot of the aero work channeled back into the engine development side of things.

The idea of fuel flow limits, etc., is crazy to me.

This is F1! Well, at least it used to be.

Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula
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Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:23 pm

Re: Torque sensors and powerlimits

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Ringleheim wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:21 pm
Torque sensors and power limits!? That's a terrible idea.

Although we are close to being there now!

For some reason, the FIA thinks the path forward is to limit development in all areas of the car except aerodynamics, such that we now have a racing series where competition is driven by how good your aero guys are, how good your wind tunnel is, and how much time you spend it making little bits and pieces to fit on the car from one track to the next.

I have no idea why anyone thinks this is good for the sport, or anything for that matter.

It has ZERO relevance to the outside world or the automotive industry.

I'd love to see a lot of the aero work channeled back into the engine development side of things.

The idea of fuel flow limits, etc., is crazy to me.

This is F1! Well, at least it used to be.
Well, the thing is the rules only state that a team has to build a chassis themself, not an engine. And the glorious days around the millenium when F1 had almost the same amount of teams as there were engine suppliers are long gone. 60% of the field are customer teams which simply have to live with what their engine supplier gives them. But every team designs their aero themself...well RP is a bit questionable this year but anyway. So from a standpoint of the customer teams which are the mayority in F1 today, it's understandable that they wan't to have as similar PUs as possible when it comes to poweroutput because that is the part they have no influence over.