## MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Craigy
84
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:20 am

### MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

Hi all,
I had a look for this, but could not find a topic on it.

Has anyone here discussed the possibility that some clever manufacturer might attempt to make the MGU-H shaft and the IC interact directly using a "virtual cog" in the form of a magnetic field from the MGU-H and a cleverly designed crankshaft, or piston?

My thinking is that the MGU-H necessarily produces a magnetic field as part of its regular operation, and I don't see anything in the rules limiting the flux to within its own casing.

If the H was driven by the ES to a rate corresponding with the air intake requirement of the IC, and if the sizing of the compressor was such that the H shaft was a simple multiple of the crank speed (say, 8:1 or 10:1), it might be possible to make the crank take a little energy from the H in the form of a few of magnetic pulses per cycle, so long as the H and crank shafts were synchronised.

Imagine the H shaft's rotating fields magnetically interacting with the pistons (if magnetic) to push them down or pull them up a little by magnetic field on each cycle, or even interacting with magnetic parts of the bottom of the IC (it's a large hunk of ferrous material, with throws that look a lot like rotors).

It's just an idea, don't hurt me!

TimW
TimW
31
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:07 pm

### Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

I guess then you are converting the MGU-H to a second MGU-K, so it would be illegal (or limited by the regs to the combined power).

And if you could get any power transfer I doubt it would be very efficient ( what is is all about in the end)

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
594
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

### Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

TimW wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:12 am
I guess then you are converting the MGU-H to a second MGU-K, so it would be illegal (or limited by the regs to the combined power).
And if you could get any power transfer I doubt it would be very efficient ( what is is all about in the end)
the efficiency of an EM machine is only as good as the efficiency of its magnetic circuit
(that's why the air gap needs to be constant and tiny - and heat is a bad thing here ?)

and/but .....
the OP seems to be replacing a generator of electrical energy with a generator of mechanical energy - why ?
as mechanical energy can't be stored and saved for use at the most advantageous times

dans79
252
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

### Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

I think you would have an untenable problem with emi and the control electronics if the magnetic field was big enough to have even a trivial impact. Mainly because of the inverse cube law. I won't even mention the other issues you would have, that is also related to the inverse cube law.
191 103 103 7

SiLo
103
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:09 pm

### Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

dans79 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:18 pm
I think you would have an untenable problem with emi and the control electronics if the magnetic field was big enough to have even a trivial impact. Mainly because of the inverse cube law. I won't even mention the other issues you would have, that is also related to the inverse cube law.
Pretty much this. To have any real effect the magnetic field would have to be quite large, and then you would be required to shield almost every sensor on the car heavily. Whilst the idea is novel, I think in reality that this would never happen.
Felipe Baby!

TimW
TimW
31
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:07 pm

### Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

SiLo wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:31 pm
dans79 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:18 pm
I think you would have an untenable problem with emi and the control electronics if the magnetic field was big enough to have even a trivial impact. Mainly because of the inverse cube law. I won't even mention the other issues you would have, that is also related to the inverse cube law.
Pretty much this. To have any real effect the magnetic field would have to be quite large, and then you would be required to shield almost every sensor on the car heavily. Whilst the idea is novel, I think in reality that this would never happen.
But you could mess up other cars by simply driving close to them, brilliant!

Big Tea
97
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

### Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

TimW wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:19 pm
SiLo wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:31 pm
dans79 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:18 pm
I think you would have an untenable problem with emi and the control electronics if the magnetic field was big enough to have even a trivial impact. Mainly because of the inverse cube law. I won't even mention the other issues you would have, that is also related to the inverse cube law.
Pretty much this. To have any real effect the magnetic field would have to be quite large, and then you would be required to shield almost every sensor on the car heavily. Whilst the idea is novel, I think in reality that this would never happen.
But you could mess up other cars by simply driving close to them, brilliant!
I was fine until I started the overtake Toto
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

dren
222
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:14 pm

### Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

Big Tea wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:21 pm
TimW wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:19 pm
SiLo wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:31 pm

Pretty much this. To have any real effect the magnetic field would have to be quite large, and then you would be required to shield almost every sensor on the car heavily. Whilst the idea is novel, I think in reality that this would never happen.
But you could mess up other cars by simply driving close to them, brilliant!
I was fine until I started the overtake Toto

Add dirty EM field to dirty air for failed overtake excuses.
Honda!

Craigy
84
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:20 am

### Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

TimW wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:12 am
I guess then you are converting the MGU-H to a second MGU-K, so it would be illegal (or limited by the regs to the combined power).

And if you could get any power transfer I doubt it would be very efficient ( what is is all about in the end)
Efficiency doesn't matter in quali.
Small gains are gains, especially if they are something only your PU has.

Craigy
84
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:20 am

### Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:54 am
TimW wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:12 am
I guess then you are converting the MGU-H to a second MGU-K, so it would be illegal (or limited by the regs to the combined power).
And if you could get any power transfer I doubt it would be very efficient ( what is is all about in the end)
the efficiency of an EM machine is only as good as the efficiency of its magnetic circuit
(that's why the air gap needs to be constant and tiny - and heat is a bad thing here ?)

and/but .....
the OP seems to be replacing a generator of electrical energy with a generator of mechanical energy - why ?
as mechanical energy can't be stored and saved for use at the most advantageous times
Because if the ES can dump power straight into the ERS-H at unregulated rates, and if the ERS-K is already being supplied with the maximum amount of power by regulation, this is an alternative way of getting ES power into forward motion.

Craigy
84
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:20 am

### Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

dans79 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:18 pm
I think you would have an untenable problem with emi and the control electronics if the magnetic field was big enough to have even a trivial impact. Mainly because of the inverse cube law. I won't even mention the other issues you would have, that is also related to the inverse cube law.
I think the fields are already big enough to envelop the pistons, given the positioning of the ERS-H in the middle of the vee. It's a question of whether or not it can help generate more power from these.

Craigy
84
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:20 am

### Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

SiLo wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:31 pm
dans79 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:18 pm
I think you would have an untenable problem with emi and the control electronics if the magnetic field was big enough to have even a trivial impact. Mainly because of the inverse cube law. I won't even mention the other issues you would have, that is also related to the inverse cube law.
Pretty much this. To have any real effect the magnetic field would have to be quite large, and then you would be required to shield almost every sensor on the car heavily. Whilst the idea is novel, I think in reality that this would never happen.
I'd be surprised if there were many sensors on the car that weren't already pretty heavily shielded, but of course we're discussing an eMachine in the middle of an engine Vee. Nothing to stop the shielding from being put around that but the fields still being able to get from eMachine to pistons or eMachine to crankshaft.

Craigy
84
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:20 am

### Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

TimW wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:19 pm
SiLo wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:31 pm
dans79 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:18 pm
I think you would have an untenable problem with emi and the control electronics if the magnetic field was big enough to have even a trivial impact. Mainly because of the inverse cube law. I won't even mention the other issues you would have, that is also related to the inverse cube law.
Pretty much this. To have any real effect the magnetic field would have to be quite large, and then you would be required to shield almost every sensor on the car heavily. Whilst the idea is novel, I think in reality that this would never happen.
But you could mess up other cars by simply driving close to them, brilliant!
I think we already had this at Singapore one year, iirc caused by power lines for a metro train? It was causing gearbox issues.

dans79
252
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

### Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

Craigy wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:13 pm
dans79 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:18 pm
I think you would have an untenable problem with emi and the control electronics if the magnetic field was big enough to have even a trivial impact. Mainly because of the inverse cube law. I won't even mention the other issues you would have, that is also related to the inverse cube law.
I think the fields are already big enough to envelop the pistons, given the positioning of the ERS-H in the middle of the vee. It's a question of whether or not it can help generate more power from these.
I think you missed the point. The fields reach out forever, but the strength drops by inverse cube law (very quickly). In other words you are going to have to dump far more energy in than fesable.
191 103 103 7

Craigy
84
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:20 am

### Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

dans79 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:35 pm
Craigy wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:13 pm
dans79 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:18 pm
I think you would have an untenable problem with emi and the control electronics if the magnetic field was big enough to have even a trivial impact. Mainly because of the inverse cube law. I won't even mention the other issues you would have, that is also related to the inverse cube law.
I think the fields are already big enough to envelop the pistons, given the positioning of the ERS-H in the middle of the vee. It's a question of whether or not it can help generate more power from these.
I think you missed the point. The fields reach out forever, but the strength drops by inverse cube law (very quickly). In other words you are going to have to dump far more energy in than fesable.
I quite understand.
Out of interest, how far do you think the pistons are from the emachine stator?