MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

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The magnetic fields are contained by the poles in the MGUH motor/generator.

If you allow them to propgate outwards (by using such geometry of the poles) on their own... Two things..
Hugely inefficient MGUH
Larg scale interference of this strong field with other electrical lines and electronics..

Not a good idea. And not necessary because energy flow from MGUH to MUGH is not limited. However if you are looking to cheat.... And pump more than 120kW as additional power to the crank shaft.... This is not practical with the current engine hardware... Piston's motion is not synced with the MGUH.. U need another "motor" somewhere..... You could.... Wrap some "auxiliary power cable" near a " hidden armature" on the crank shaft... The power source would be from the battery.. In a parallel circuit to the MGUH..
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SiLo
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Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

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Craigy wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:15 pm
TimW wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:19 pm
SiLo wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:31 pm


Pretty much this. To have any real effect the magnetic field would have to be quite large, and then you would be required to shield almost every sensor on the car heavily. Whilst the idea is novel, I think in reality that this would never happen.
But you could mess up other cars by simply driving close to them, brilliant!
I think we already had this at Singapore one year, iirc caused by power lines for a metro train? It was causing gearbox issues.
It was causing power drops. Few years back I went for a tour of the Merc factory and the head of IT spoke about it. Apparently the drivers could tell there was a power dropout when going over the bridge, even though it only lasted for less than a tenth of a second.
Felipe Baby!

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Craigy
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Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

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PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:17 am
The magnetic fields are contained by the poles in the MGUH motor/generator.

If you allow them to propgate outwards (by using such geometry of the poles) on their own... Two things..
Hugely inefficient MGUH
Larg scale interference of this strong field with other electrical lines and electronics..

Not a good idea. And not necessary because energy flow from MGUH to MUGH is not limited. However if you are looking to cheat.... And pump more than 120kW as additional power to the crank shaft.... This is not practical with the current engine hardware... Piston's motion is not synced with the MGUH.. U need another "motor" somewhere..... You could.... Wrap some "auxiliary power cable" near a " hidden armature" on the crank shaft... The power source would be from the battery.. In a parallel circuit to the MGUH..
re "The magnetic fields are contained by the poles in the MGUH motor/generator. " -- this depends on what you've designed really.
Imagine if the MGU-H had more than one set of windings.

re: sync issues - I did say above that it might be possible to do this if you set the mgu-h to some multiple of the crank speed. At that point you are electrically driving it almost like a supercharger except that instead of a drive belt linking the supercharger stack to the crank, you're doing something similar with the mgu-H control and the drive itself is magnetic into the pistons or bottom part of the engine.

I'm also not suggesting this has to be a big amount of energy. It's just an idea, and if you were able to get a few more Kw out of the ES and into the drivetrain, it would be something the other manufacturers don't have.

Maybe it's a silly idea. I just like kicking ideas around.
Last edited by Craigy on Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

piast9
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Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

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In my opinion such alternating magnetic field apart from causing huge interference would also generate eddy currents in each metal component. This would generate huge losses and significant amount of heat.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

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If I recall correctly, there is no power limit on the MGU-H recovery. So why would you waste power trying to magnetically couple to another part of the driveline when you can send this energy back to the battery and then use it to drive the MGU-K?
Not the engineer at Force India

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

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You have a better chance doing this...

1) Contain Magnetic fields in MGUH as normal to maintain efficiency. Leave MGUH as-is.

2) Use additional MGUH electrical power which is not limited by rulesto create additional boost pressure at the compressor. The Rules enforce a maximum boost pressure, but this boost pressure is measured at some point downstream of the compressor (correct me if I am wrong?)

3) By-pass the additional air flow via a control valve to a hidden cold-turbine coupled to the crank-shaft. This exhaust air from this cold turbine rejoins the exhaust stream to meat the regulations.

This way the crankshaft can be boosted beyond 120kW.
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

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PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:49 pm
..... The Rules enforce a maximum boost pressure ....
they don't

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

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Tommy Cookers wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:36 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:49 pm
..... The Rules enforce a maximum boost pressure ....
they don't
Ok maybe i mixed it up with the old rules. But this is good.
Not sure if putting an air motor on the crank shaft is legal though... Hehe. But that's basically what this idea is.

Efficiency of this air motor would be 65% to 70%..
Efficiency of compressor... Maybe 75%?
MGUK likely 98%...

So overall efficiency to crank... About 50% this is not bad...
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piast9
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Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

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PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:49 pm

2) Use additional MGUH electrical power which is not limited by rulesto create additional boost pressure at the compressor.
What's the point in using MGUH electrical power to create additional boost? The turbo itself is made just for that purpose.

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Zynerji
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Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

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piast9 wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:01 am
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:49 pm

2) Use additional MGUH electrical power which is not limited by rulesto create additional boost pressure at the compressor.
What's the point in using MGUH electrical power to create additional boost? The turbo itself is made just for that purpose.
Could the overboost create enough vacuum to actually pull the piston up when the exhaust valve open?

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

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piast9 wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:01 am
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:49 pm

2) Use additional MGUH electrical power which is not limited by rulesto create additional boost pressure at the compressor.
What's the point in using MGUH electrical power to create additional boost? The turbo itself is made just for that purpose.
Becuase we want to use that extra boost to cheat with. The engine will consume its usual amount of air. The rest will be diverted to a hidden air motor couple to the crankshaft.

That air motor could be magnetically coupled to the crankshaft if needed too.
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Craigy
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Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

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Zynerji wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:15 am
piast9 wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:01 am
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:49 pm

2) Use additional MGUH electrical power which is not limited by rulesto create additional boost pressure at the compressor.
What's the point in using MGUH electrical power to create additional boost? The turbo itself is made just for that purpose.
Could the overboost create enough vacuum to actually pull the piston up when the exhaust valve open?
There are model engines that operate like that, but vacuum is limited in pressure (the maximum vacuum you can get to is 0 bar).
Last edited by Craigy on Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Craigy
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Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

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PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:57 pm
piast9 wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:01 am
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:49 pm

2) Use additional MGUH electrical power which is not limited by rulesto create additional boost pressure at the compressor.
What's the point in using MGUH electrical power to create additional boost? The turbo itself is made just for that purpose.
Becuase we want to use that extra boost to cheat with. The engine will consume its usual amount of air. The rest will be diverted to a hidden air motor couple to the crankshaft.

That air motor could be magnetically coupled to the crankshaft if needed too.
"hidden air motor" wouldn't be hidden for long.

The interesting thing about the magnetic field is that it necessarily exists as a basic fundamental of the MGUH whether we are optimising around it or not.

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Craigy
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Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

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Tim.Wright wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:57 pm
If I recall correctly, there is no power limit on the MGU-H recovery. So why would you waste power trying to magnetically couple to another part of the driveline when you can send this energy back to the battery and then use it to drive the MGU-K?
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm suggesting, which is dumping electrical power from the ES into the crankshaft as an additional deployment route. This is expending energy (eg at start of straight) on, for example, q3 laps.

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Craigy
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Re: MGU-H to Crankshaft electromagnetic coupling

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piast9 wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:11 pm
In my opinion such alternating magnetic field apart from causing huge interference would also generate eddy currents in each metal component. This would generate huge losses and significant amount of heat.
Huge losses in... what?