Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Glyn
Glyn
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Wass85 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:03 am
mem wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:53 am
in such scenario what prevent Mercedes or RBR from doing slow sprint race to finish last to start first on Sunday ?
In my proposals there would be no sprint race, just qualifying that awards points. That way teams will have to do their best or lose out on points on Saturday.
I think that's an awesome idea.

People might create 1 lap wonder cars.
And then explode in the race.

Or the slower cars, might build up many points through slow consistency.

It would put more emphasis on the driver bottling it or not in a lap.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:50 pm


Of course if you DNF in the qualifying race you will start the Grand Prux last, so it is in everyone's interests to race clean and fair in the qualifying "heat". :wink:
Go ask Briatore and Piquet Jnr about racing cleanly and not causing crashes on purpose. :wink:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:38 pm

If reverse grid is good enough for F2 and produces fantastic close racing action, there is NO reason it cannot be good enough for F1! :) It could be a lot of fun indeed, and is worth a try for selected races IMO.
If F2 cars are good enough for F2 and produce good racing, there is no reason why F2 cars aren't good enough for F1.

There, we've solved the budget costs issue at a stroke... :wink: :lol:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Wynters
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:38 pm
Session 4: The qualifying race. A race on Saturday of 155km, with a grid set by the reverse of the championship order. NO points are paid. You may use one compound, i.e., no pitstops for leaders to easily drop back and hot lap to an undercut.
According to Andreas Seidl, the delta needed for an overtake was 1.5 seconds at Monza, so the championship order will pretty much dictate the race order, especially with both engine modes and tyre variables taken away.
JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:38 pm
Session 5: The Grand Prix of 305km which awards points. The grid is set by the results of the qualifying race. You must use two compounds in a dry race.

There will be no "gamesmanship" as it is your best interests to finish AS HIGH AS POSSIBLE in the qualifying race. There is no incentive to finish lower than possible... It should be maximum attack with clean, fair racing. :)
This would be valid thinking if it was a one race championship. If it's a multi-race championship including tracks with varying degrees of overtaking difficulty, then teams will game the season as a whole. There's no harm starting behind your slower competitors at China. There's barely any point racing if you aren't on Pole in Monaco, Australia, etc and, apparently, Monza. Still, it will be good to see Williams / Haas / etc guaranteed at least one race win every season. I also suspect the championship leaders will just keep taking new PU parts on those races where overtaking during the qualifying race is basically impossible.
JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:38 pm
If reverse grid is good enough for F2 and produces fantastic close racing action, there is NO reason it cannot be good enough for F1! :) It could be a lot of fun indeed, and is worth a try for selected races IMO.
F1 is not F2. The aero wake issue seems to be on a different scale.

Also, trying it for 'certain races' will disproportionately screw some teams and may be directly responsible for them going bust / mass redundancies. If they are going to try it, give the teams two years notice and try it for a whole season.

What will this even achieve? Either a) the championship still shakes out in order of fastest teams or b) they're artificially targeting certain teams who will just game their way out of it.
If it's for more overtaking, then change the construction rules to precisely mirror BTCC.

* * *

Brawn is clearly trolling us. I fully expect him to add sprinklers, fan-voted 'Crofty Cars' popping up every few laps to keep the racing close (ala Masi Safety Cars), and drivers having to skydive onto the grid and then get into their cars whilst celebrities fire dodgeballs at them (Takeshi's Castle-style) before they can start the race. We can shorten the races to ten, perhaps five minutes too so I don't have to pay attention for too long. Maybe combine it with trying to push giant footballs into goals? Bert Mylander could act as 'goalkeeper'.

Wass85
Wass85
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Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Glyn wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:27 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:03 am
mem wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:53 am
in such scenario what prevent Mercedes or RBR from doing slow sprint race to finish last to start first on Sunday ?
In my proposals there would be no sprint race, just qualifying that awards points. That way teams will have to do their best or lose out on points on Saturday.
I think that's an awesome idea.

People might create 1 lap wonder cars.
And then explode in the race.

Or the slower cars, might build up many points through slow consistency.

It would put more emphasis on the driver bottling it or not in a lap.
It would also bring up some interesting strategies with some drivers opting for race pace while others get their car perfected for qualifying.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:50 pm
Phil wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:48 pm
What’s the point of a championship if one or more races are done differently from the rest?
Reverse grid qualifying races are to set the grid, they are not for points. It is a replacement for time trial qualifying.

Of course if you DNF in the qualifying race you will start the Grand Prux last, so it is in everyone's interests to race clean and fair in the qualifying "heat". :wink:
So then you'll get all the drivers too afraid to make anything but the safest of overtakes for fear of their cars getting damaged or DNFing- particularly those with championship aspirations, while those at the front who have absolutely nothing to lose and can partake in some really 'robust' defensive driving to keep their positions or some absolute divebombs, knowing that no-one is going to risk contact in what essentially will be a melee.

I'm not against it being tried as a one off experiment (and Bahrain 2 is probably the best opportunity) but it's all a bit emperor's new clothes and I think a bunch of (possibly not anticipated) flaws and problems will be revealed with it, and it won't last long.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:30 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:50 pm


Of course if you DNF in the qualifying race you will start the Grand Prux last, so it is in everyone's interests to race clean and fair in the qualifying "heat". :wink:
Go ask Briatore and Piquet Jnr about racing cleanly and not causing crashes on purpose. :wink:
Absolutely. I mean would it really be that hard for example for an AT or the RBR #2 car to innocently tangle with a Mercedes and- oops- pop it out of the race and screw up it's Sunday? Collateral damage to the car that does it, but it gives RBR #1 car a HUGE advantage.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:00 pm


I'm not against it being tried as a one off experiment (and Bahrain 2 is probably the best opportunity) but it's all a bit emperor's new clothes and I think a bunch of (possibly not anticipated) flaws and problems will be revealed with it, and it won't last long.
If it's tried this year, it must be after the championships have been decided. Anything else is just an obvious attempt to prevent a certain team and driver from succeeding. I wouldn't be surprised to see that ending in court.

If they want to run it all of next year - the last year of the current type of car - then at least everyone knows where they stand from day one.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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dans79
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Imo, retarded is the only word needed to describe this!
191 103 103 7

i70q7m7ghw
i70q7m7ghw
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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I think it's worth trying as some sort of exhibition that doesn't affect the championship, just to see what happens, but I doubt it would have the effect they think it will. Hamilton at the back of the pack at Monza was able to make progress because he was a fast car amongst slower cars. Literally reversing the grid will put all of the fast cars at the back, and they will be too busy fighting amongst each other to make any real progress. The Pirelli tyres won't allow the cars to run flat out for a sprint race without pit stops, they just aren't capable of doing that, so after the initial laps the tyres will degrade and the result will probably be set. And lets not mention the fact there is likely to be a whole ton of wheel banging and hard racing, which will cause lots of investigations and penalties from the FIA as this year they seem to be penalising everything.

Wass85
Wass85
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Diesel wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:27 pm
I think it's worth trying as some sort of exhibition that doesn't affect the championship, just to see what happens, but I doubt it would have the effect they think it will. Hamilton at the back of the pack at Monza was able to make progress because he was a fast car amongst slower cars. Literally reversing the grid will put all of the fast cars at the back, and they will be too busy fighting amongst each other to make any real progress. The Pirelli tyres won't allow the cars to run flat out for a sprint race without pit stops, they just aren't capable of doing that, so after the initial laps the tyres will degrade and the result will probably be set. And lets not mention the fact there is likely to be a whole ton of wheel banging and hard racing, which will cause lots of investigations and penalties from the FIA as this year they seem to be penalising everything.
I think that's their intention though, they want to see fresh new winners whilst giving us plenty of excitement.

The one problem that will arise no matter the format is sister teams affecting the outcome of races and that is just blatant cheating.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:03 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:30 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:50 pm


Of course if you DNF in the qualifying race you will start the Grand Prux last, so it is in everyone's interests to race clean and fair in the qualifying "heat". :wink:
Go ask Briatore and Piquet Jnr about racing cleanly and not causing crashes on purpose. :wink:
Absolutely. I mean would it really be that hard for example for an AT or the RBR #2 car to innocently tangle with a Mercedes and- oops- pop it out of the race and screw up it's Sunday? Collateral damage to the car that does it, but it gives RBR #1 car a HUGE advantage.
Or to add an alternative, what if Max is stuck in 20th behind Bottas in 19th, who can then just hold him up and keep him there, and completely ruin his weekend while Hamilton can just blitz through as much of the field as possible and start with a huge advantage in the feature race?

I think under this system you could really see teams adopting a very clear #1 and #2 driver strategy from the outset as far as WDC is concerned.

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Big Tea
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:40 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:03 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:30 pm

Go ask Briatore and Piquet Jnr about racing cleanly and not causing crashes on purpose. :wink:
Absolutely. I mean would it really be that hard for example for an AT or the RBR #2 car to innocently tangle with a Mercedes and- oops- pop it out of the race and screw up it's Sunday? Collateral damage to the car that does it, but it gives RBR #1 car a HUGE advantage.
Or to add an alternative, what if Max is stuck in 20th behind Bottas in 19th, who can then just hold him up and keep him there, and completely ruin his weekend while Hamilton can just blitz through as much of the field as possible and start with a huge advantage in the feature race?

I think under this system you could really see teams adopting a very clear #1 and #2 driver strategy from the outset as far as WDC is concerned.
Is this 'our' Bottas that will do this? :mrgreen: I see a flaw in your plan
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

i70q7m7ghw
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:40 pm
Or to add an alternative, what if Max is stuck in 20th behind Bottas in 19th, who can then just hold him up and keep him there, and completely ruin his weekend while Hamilton can just blitz through as much of the field as possible and start with a huge advantage in the feature race?

I think under this system you could really see teams adopting a very clear #1 and #2 driver strategy from the outset as far as WDC is concerned.
Yup, and because it's a race you can hardly penalise people for holding another car up. My view is they should setup some non-championship races and test some of these ideas out, ideally more than once to see what actually happens. I do think F1 should be about the best drivers and the best cars winning, if we just want random winners every weekend why not just put all the driver names in a hat and pull them out randomly to decide the result?

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qatmix
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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There are so many ways that reverse grid races can be gamed that it is just a joke. The whole idea is a stupid gimmick and Monza actually proved what a terrible idea it would be. Everyone went backwards or stayed put unless there was a massive speed differential via tyres / Chassis.