Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Brake Horse Power
Brake Horse Power
18
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

Post

Some numbers. Ordinary petrol has an energy density of 46,4MJ/kg. Total allowed fuel now is 110kg. Total stored energy 5104MJ. At 50% TE this means in one race maximum 2552MJ goes to the wheels. Equals 708kWh.

Suppose an F1 race is 90 minutes this means you will need a 472kW fuel cell. If you can regen more during braking the size obviously decreases, that would be nice from a technical point of view however I don't think you will get the stopping power they have now.

Suppose they manage to make the fuel cell 75% efficient incl balance of plant. Would mean there is 944kWh potential energy needed. Hydrogen lower heating value is 33,3kWh/kg so 28,5kg of liquid hydrogen is needed.

Some notes: radiator size isn't only depending on the thermal efficiency but also the delta T between operating temp and ambient. The larger delta T, the smaller the radiator size. If you have liquid hydrogen onboard it might make sense to use it to cool the FC.

Battery size will probably need to be bigger than current since there is less power from the FC available vs ICE.

Rodak
Rodak
30
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:02 am

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

Post

.....so 28,5kg of liquid hydrogen is needed.
That's about 400 liters, approximately two wine barrels worth. Where is this going to be carried? Don't forget this is a cryogenic liquid under pressure...... Or is there going to be refueling? One of the issues with using liquid hydrogen as a rocket fuel is exactly this, the large volume required. For comparison, 110 kg of gasoline has a volume of about 147 L.

Brake Horse Power
Brake Horse Power
18
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

Post

I didn't say it was a good idea 😉

With regards to fuels ethanol or methanol fuel cells make more sense, however than you need to include a reformer as well (or use DMFC). Making it bigger and heavier on the system side.

User avatar
GM7
15
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:41 pm
Location: France

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

Post


Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
534
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

Post

Rodak wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:42 am
.....so 28,5kg of liquid hydrogen is needed.
That's about 400 liters, approximately two wine barrels worth. Where is this going to be carried? Don't forget this is a cryogenic liquid under pressure...... Or is there going to be refueling? One of the issues with using liquid hydrogen as a rocket fuel is exactly this, the large volume required. For comparison, 110 kg of gasoline has a volume of about 147 L.
A lot of work is being done materials that can store hydrogen within. Metal-organic frameworks (MOF) seems to be a popular route.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Rodak
Rodak
30
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:02 am

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

Post

A lot of work is being done materials that can store hydrogen within. Metal-organic frameworks (MOF) seems to be a popular route.
I don't see how any hydrogen storage method can be denser than the liquid. It may be denser for gas, but liquid hydrogen is about as far as you can go, unless you get to some dense solid state at 5°K and 100 bar or so...... I did see a study where a French team observed transition of hydrogen to a metallic state at 425 GPa; one gigaPascal = 10,000 bar......

User avatar
ispano6
119
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my playseat

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

Post

Japan and Saudi Arabia are leading the way with blue ammonia and green ammonia. Eventually the cost to produce both should come down especially as research and adoption ramp up.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
534
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

Post

Rodak wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:44 am
A lot of work is being done materials that can store hydrogen within. Metal-organic frameworks (MOF) seems to be a popular route.
I don't see how any hydrogen storage method can be denser than the liquid. It may be denser for gas, but liquid hydrogen is about as far as you can go, unless you get to some dense solid state at 5°K and 100 bar or so...... I did see a study where a French team observed transition of hydrogen to a metallic state at 425 GPa; one gigaPascal = 10,000 bar......
The point is that you don't need the cryogenic storage and all the issues that go with it. Liquid H2 is potentially nasty stuff.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

tok-tokkie
tok-tokkie
34
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:21 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

Post

In the Total video the refueling time is 4 minutes. That is a problem in a 24 hour race but a killer for a F1 type race. Either carry a race worth's of fuel from the start or have quick connect H2 tanks that get exchanged during a refueling stop.
I am very interested in what will transpire. Japan & Korea are committed to H2 vehicles. I hope the racing will be more exciting than Formula E (and the recent F1 seasons).

User avatar
Big Tea
88
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

Post

tok-tokkie wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:58 am
In the Total video the refueling time is 4 minutes. That is a problem in a 24 hour race but a killer for a F1 type race. Either carry a race worth's of fuel from the start or have quick connect H2 tanks that get exchanged during a refueling stop.
I am very interested in what will transpire. Japan & Korea are committed to H2 vehicles. I hope the racing will be more exciting than Formula E (and the recent F1 seasons).
Good points.

Maybe it would pay F1 to get a banker in by making provision for Hydrogen before some does a FE and nabs all rights to it for 25 years.
It would not have to be used, just allowed.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Rodak
Rodak
30
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:02 am

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

Post

The point is that you don't need the cryogenic storage and all the issues that go with it.
I understand, but now, by using gaseous hydrogen stored in some substrate you've increased the volume significantly and added weight compared to liquid H2..... I suspect any method of storing hydrogen gas in a substrate will also require a pressure vessel.

Xwang
Xwang
28
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:12 am

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

Post

ispano6 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:06 am
Japan and Saudi Arabia are leading the way with blue ammonia and green ammonia. Eventually the cost to produce both should come down especially as research and adoption ramp up.
It is an alternative even thought I read some times ago that ammonia could be used as fuel, but there are concerns about toxicity and environment "pollution".
Another solution is to use synthetic fuels made from renewable energy using CO2 capturing methods.
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
534
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

Post

Rodak wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:18 pm
The point is that you don't need the cryogenic storage and all the issues that go with it.
I understand, but now, by using gaseous hydrogen stored in some substrate you've increased the volume significantly and added weight compared to liquid H2..... I suspect any method of storing hydrogen gas in a substrate will also require a pressure vessel.
My own view is that hydrogen is a rubbish fuel for cars in general and especially racing cars. Fine for lorries / buses, perhaps even trains, but not cars.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
534
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

Post

Xwang wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:10 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:06 am
Japan and Saudi Arabia are leading the way with blue ammonia and green ammonia. Eventually the cost to produce both should come down especially as research and adoption ramp up.
It is an alternative even thought I read some times ago that ammonia could be used as fuel, but there are concerns about toxicity and environment "pollution".
Another solution is to use synthetic fuels made from renewable energy using CO2 capturing methods.
Burning ammonia will release NOx, lots of NOx. It's also hugely energy intensive to make. Currently approximately 2% of the World's energy production goes to making ammonia. That's then used in industry and for making fertilizer.

Ammonia can be used as a hydrogen store, it's catalysed to release H2 and N2, the H2 can then be used in a fuel cell. Ammonia is a nasty thing, however, with toxicity at quite low levels. Even when not at fatal concentrations in the air, it can cause serious damage to the lungs etc., and even normal skin.

Making fuel from captured CO2 is a nice idea. It doesn't solve urban air quality issues, however.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

User avatar
ispano6
119
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my playseat

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:28 pm
Xwang wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:10 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:06 am
Japan and Saudi Arabia are leading the way with blue ammonia and green ammonia. Eventually the cost to produce both should come down especially as research and adoption ramp up.
It is an alternative even thought I read some times ago that ammonia could be used as fuel, but there are concerns about toxicity and environment "pollution".
Another solution is to use synthetic fuels made from renewable energy using CO2 capturing methods.
Burning ammonia will release NOx, lots of NOx. It's also hugely energy intensive to make. Currently approximately 2% of the World's energy production goes to making ammonia. That's then used in industry and for making fertilizer.

Ammonia can be used as a hydrogen store, it's catalysed to release H2 and N2, the H2 can then be used in a fuel cell. Ammonia is a nasty thing, however, with toxicity at quite low levels. Even when not at fatal concentrations in the air, it can cause serious damage to the lungs etc., and even normal skin.

Making fuel from captured CO2 is a nice idea. It doesn't solve urban air quality issues, however.
Again, looks like Kumamoto, Japan has found a way to eliminate the NOx issues, hence why they are moving forward with Aramco to use Blue and Green ammonia. The Hydrogen Economy seems pretty promising.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 100256.htm
... Among the possible forms of liquid H2, ammonia (NH3) is a promising carrier because it has high H2 density, is easily liquefied, and can be produced on a large-scale...

Additionally, NH3 has been drawing attention recently as a carbon-free alternative fuel. NH3 is a combustible gas that can be widely used in thermal power generation and industrial furnaces as an alternative to gasoline and light oil. However, it is difficult to burn (high ignition temperature) and generates harmful nitrogen oxides (NOx) during combustion.

Researchers at the International Research Organization for Advanced Science and Technology (IROAST) in Kumamoto University, Japan focused on a "catalytic combustion method" to solve the NH3 fuel problems. This method adds substances that promote or suppress chemical reactions during fuel combustion. Recently, they succeeded in developing a new catalyst which improves NH3 combustibility and suppresses the generation of NOx. The novel catalyst (CuOx/3A2S) is a mullite-type crystal structure 3Al2O3·2SiO2 (3A2S) carrying copper oxide (CuOx). When NH3 was burned with this catalyst, researchers found that it stayed highly active in the selective production of N2, meaning that it suppressed NOx formation, and the catalyst itself did not change even at high temperatures. Additionally, they succeeded with in situ (Operando) observations during the CuOx/3A2S reaction, and clarified the NH3 catalytic combustion reaction mechanism...