Induction charging hybrid

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
NL_Fer
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Induction charging hybrid

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Currently the ERS system is charged by 2MJ from brake energy recovery and 6-8MJ from exhaust recovery.

If we don’t want these current expensive ICE engines anymore, we need to replace current exhaust recovery with another energy source. Otherwise, the hybrid system is to heavy, to be usefull with only 2MJ brake energy. Also the cars need to fuel 140-160kg at the start.

I already suggested front brake recovery or a standard (Porsche 919) exhaust turbine generator. But how about on track induction charging? F1 could continue to be relevant by developing and marketing such technology instead of a heavy battery.

It could also be very interesting for the racing, if the induction trace would be te racing line on the straight and a driver can take the inside line to overtake or defend, at the cost of no charging. 500kw induction, could give a few MJ of charge every lap. The cars can stay light and simple, like a proper racing car.

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Big Tea
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Re: Induction charging hybrid

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:15 pm
Currently the ERS system is charged by 2MJ from brake energy recovery and 6-8MJ from exhaust recovery.

If we don’t want these current expensive ICE engines anymore, we need to replace current exhaust recovery with another energy source. Otherwise, the hybrid system is to heavy, to be usefull with only 2MJ brake energy. Also the cars need to fuel 140-160kg at the start.

I already suggested front brake recovery or a standard (Porsche 919) exhaust turbine generator. But how about on track induction charging? F1 could continue to be relevant by developing and marketing such technology instead of a heavy battery.

It could also be very interesting for the racing, if the induction trace would be te racing line on the straight and a driver can take the inside line to overtake or defend, at the cost of no charging. 500kw induction, could give a few MJ of charge every lap. The cars can stay light and simple, like a proper racing car.
If they introduced front recovery, the extra weight and equipment for front wheel drive would be minimal.

What is the restriction of recovering from retardation? is it just the limit set by FIA F! or is there really not enough opportunity on some tracks?
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Jolle
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Re: Induction charging hybrid

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If cost is your main complaint, the first question is, are the rules around these PU's is what making them expensive or is it a choice of the manufactures to spend so much?

In other words, if we would go to a simpler design, would Daimler, Ferrari and Renault cut their budget or just do more development on whatever the rules are then?

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henry
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Re: Induction charging hybrid

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Big Tea wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:53 pm


What is the restriction of recovering from retardation? is it just the limit set by FIA F! or is there really not enough opportunity on some tracks?
The 2 MJ is the upper limit of K to ES in the regulations. The actual recovery is down to the time spent braking which is generally well short of the 16 seconds needed. Only Singapore manages it.
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Big Tea
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Re: Induction charging hybrid

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henry wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:25 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:53 pm


What is the restriction of recovering from retardation? is it just the limit set by FIA F! or is there really not enough opportunity on some tracks?
The 2 MJ is the upper limit of K to ES in the regulations. The actual recovery is down to the time spent braking which is generally well short of the 16 seconds needed. Only Singapore manages it.
So it would not be much of a gain if they allowed more to be recovered?
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula
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Re: Induction charging hybrid

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Big Tea wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:15 pm
henry wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:25 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:53 pm


What is the restriction of recovering from retardation? is it just the limit set by FIA F! or is there really not enough opportunity on some tracks?
The 2 MJ is the upper limit of K to ES in the regulations. The actual recovery is down to the time spent braking which is generally well short of the 16 seconds needed. Only Singapore manages it.
So it would not be much of a gain if they allowed more to be recovered?
Not with the current equipment. If the FIA would say, they can recover with 240kW for instance then it would change the game. But that also needs a new MGU-K which can handle that.

NL_Fer
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Re: Induction charging hybrid

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Jolle wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:17 pm
If cost is your main complaint, the first question is, are the rules around these PU's is what making them expensive or is it a choice of the manufactures to spend so much?

In other words, if we would go to a simpler design, would Daimler, Ferrari and Renault cut their budget or just do more development on whatever the rules are then?
It is al about splitting the cost for those who want to pickup the bill.

Daimler & Renault would probably be interested in develop both ICE & electric driveline. Maybe Aston Martin only wants to built the ICE and leave the electric part to another manufacturer. Maybe Ferrari wants to market the electric under Magneti Marelli. Teams like Redbull & McLaren could by an ICE from Cosworth and develop the electric part in house.

By splitting the ICE and electric drive part, more combinations are possible for smaller manufacturers and independent F1 teams.

It is all about keeping F1 relevant in a fast changing world of mobility. And I don’t think that heavy electrical storage is the way to go, for F1. Also FE is already about battery powered racecars.

Induction charging could lower the weight, while manufacturers/suppliers/teams can develop/market the electric drivetrain and energy buffer.

Jolle
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Re: Induction charging hybrid

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:02 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:17 pm
If cost is your main complaint, the first question is, are the rules around these PU's is what making them expensive or is it a choice of the manufactures to spend so much?

In other words, if we would go to a simpler design, would Daimler, Ferrari and Renault cut their budget or just do more development on whatever the rules are then?
It is al about splitting the cost for those who want to pickup the bill.

Daimler & Renault would probably be interested in develop both ICE & electric driveline. Maybe Aston Martin only wants to built the ICE and leave the electric part to another manufacturer. Maybe Ferrari wants to market the electric under Magneti Marelli. Teams like Redbull & McLaren could by an ICE from Cosworth and develop the electric part in house.

By splitting the ICE and electric drive part, more combinations are possible for smaller manufacturers and independent F1 teams.

It is all about keeping F1 relevant in a fast changing world of mobility. And I don’t think that heavy electrical storage is the way to go, for F1. Also FE is already about battery powered racecars.

Induction charging could lower the weight, while manufacturers/suppliers/teams can develop/market the electric drivetrain and energy buffer.
All of that they could (and probably are) doing that. FCO for instance buys designs and parts from Mahle, MM and Garrett. Good chance their batteries are Panasonic. Daimler chooses to do lots themselves but probably outsource a lot in-house of Daimler and I presume their fuel system is Bosch.
McLaren has their own applied electronics division. They could buy a design for the ICE as they have done for their road car.

The problem isn’t who builds what, but who’s willing to pay. And with the deep pockets of Daimler and FCO/PMI, whatever the formula is, the costs are high.

For RedBull for instance, there are enough companies that can design, develop and build a V6 hybrid turbo, but there are very few that are willing to cough up 500mln to develop it.

Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula
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Re: Induction charging hybrid

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:02 pm
It is al about splitting the cost for those who want to pickup the bill.

Daimler & Renault would probably be interested in develop both ICE & electric driveline. Maybe Aston Martin only wants to built the ICE and leave the electric part to another manufacturer. Maybe Ferrari wants to market the electric under Magneti Marelli. Teams like Redbull & McLaren could by an ICE from Cosworth and develop the electric part in house.

By splitting the ICE and electric drive part, more combinations are possible for smaller manufacturers and independent F1 teams.

It is all about keeping F1 relevant in a fast changing world of mobility. And I don’t think that heavy electrical storage is the way to go, for F1. Also FE is already about battery powered racecars.

Induction charging could lower the weight, while manufacturers/suppliers/teams can develop/market the electric drivetrain and energy buffer.
I think your forgot one thing though. Who has to pay for the installation of the induction system on the race tracks? I don't think the track owners are very keen to invest massively into a "gimmick" which is only used by one race series one weekend every year. F1 is already a bad deal for the track owners as it is now.

NL_Fer
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Re: Induction charging hybrid

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A company like ABB, Siemens, Bombardier, Qualcomm, who already develop the technology and want to market it to towns, road owners, etc. They could install it for free, to showcase what they can do.

Dr. Acula
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Re: Induction charging hybrid

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:35 am
A company like ABB, Siemens, Bombardier, Qualcomm, who already develop the technology and want to market it to towns, road owners, etc. They could install it for free, to showcase what they can do.
Would be a rather weak showcase because you can't see the system. It's the same as with F1 gearboxes. You know they're there, and technically they may be interesting but you can't see it so it isn't particular interesting for the average viewer. UBS achieves probably a much bigger marketing effect by just throwing money at F1 so their Brandname is everywhere around the track.

NL_Fer
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Re: Induction charging hybrid

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The induction charging is not meant for the average viewer. It like Haas and BWT that invite their prospect costumers to the F1 event. F1 is great for attracting such high profile company representatives and decision makers and sell your product.

Jolle
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Re: Induction charging hybrid

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:26 pm
The induction charging is not meant for the average viewer. It like Haas and BWT that invite their prospect costumers to the F1 event. F1 is great for attracting such high profile company representatives and decision makers and sell your product.
If there would be a businesscase for that, it wouldn't be F1 but FE. Induction a piece of city center and have a city bus run it after the race weekend.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Induction charging hybrid

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:15 pm
Currently the ERS system is charged by 2MJ from brake energy recovery and 6-8MJ from exhaust recovery.

If we don’t want these current expensive ICE engines anymore, we need to replace current exhaust recovery with another energy source. Otherwise, the hybrid system is to heavy, to be usefull with only 2MJ brake energy. Also the cars need to fuel 140-160kg at the start.

I already suggested front brake recovery or a standard (Porsche 919) exhaust turbine generator. But how about on track induction charging? F1 could continue to be relevant by developing and marketing such technology instead of a heavy battery.

It could also be very interesting for the racing, if the induction trace would be te racing line on the straight and a driver can take the inside line to overtake or defend, at the cost of no charging. 500kw induction, could give a few MJ of charge every lap. The cars can stay light and simple, like a proper racing car.
Strong magnetic field. So that has to be contained. And the part od the car that picks up the field has to be in a very close position to it. Or else the field will mess the systems on the car.

This would be close field, using the technique they use in fridge magnets so the fiels stays within say 6 inches of the road. Hopefully it does not disrupt any low lying electronics.
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joshuagore
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Re: Induction charging hybrid

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Still a lot of metal in race cars, seems hard to isolate the field? How do we not randomly heat cars electrical wiring, nuts, bolts etc..? My experience in designing induction tools is that they don't want metal parts in the field unless they want it effected.