Mixed tyres?

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nokivasara
2
Joined: 27 Nov 2014, 20:53

Mixed tyres?

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Other racing series allow for mixed tyres, in WRC they can even use different tyres on one axle! Why is F1 sticking to the same compound all around?
This has bugged me for a while, we see teams struggling to get the fronts or rears to work, this could be a way to fix that. Let them use the best tyres for their car, none of that mandated 2 compound bs, some teams maybe decide to run soft and make 3 stops, another do a 2 stopper on mixed tyres and another could run hard from start to finish with no stops(looking at you Checo).
What do you guys think?

Jolle
132
Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Mixed tyres?

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nokivasara wrote:
16 Dec 2020, 21:27
Other racing series allow for mixed tyres, in WRC they can even use different tyres on one axle! Why is F1 sticking to the same compound all around?
This has bugged me for a while, we see teams struggling to get the fronts or rears to work, this could be a way to fix that. Let them use the best tyres for their car, none of that mandated 2 compound bs, some teams maybe decide to run soft and make 3 stops and another could run hard from start to finish (looking at you Checo).
What do you guys think?
How can you run two compounds in a race then you mix and match? It’s just something that is decided. “In the good old days” anything was possible. Prost won a GP by having 4 different compounds on his car! Plus, during the tire wars, especially the bespoke Bridgestones were fine tuned for each circuit.

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hUirEYExbN
3
Joined: 25 Aug 2020, 14:30

Re: Mixed tyres?

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Jolle wrote:
16 Dec 2020, 21:34
nokivasara wrote:
16 Dec 2020, 21:27
Other racing series allow for mixed tyres, in WRC they can even use different tyres on one axle! Why is F1 sticking to the same compound all around?
This has bugged me for a while, we see teams struggling to get the fronts or rears to work, this could be a way to fix that. Let them use the best tyres for their car, none of that mandated 2 compound bs, some teams maybe decide to run soft and make 3 stops and another could run hard from start to finish (looking at you Checo).
What do you guys think?
How can you run two compounds in a race then you mix and match?
....
They could ditch that rule. Maybe mandate that one corner/side/end has to use both compounds in the race, or just mandate 2 pit stops.

feni_remmen
3
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 15:43

Re: Mixed tyres?

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It’s always bemusing to me why people would want to mandate pitstops. I get the discussion and would love the teams to be able to mix and match tyres to suit their own needs. I also appreciate that some races in the last 10 years would have had zero stops without the regs forcing both compounds to be run. I really do think forced pitstops is just another regulatory device that alienates me from the exercise of f1. If I could change a feature around tyres, I’d let the run zero stops if they want to. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

nokivasara
2
Joined: 27 Nov 2014, 20:53

Re: Mixed tyres?

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Jolle wrote:
16 Dec 2020, 21:34
nokivasara wrote:
16 Dec 2020, 21:27
Other racing series allow for mixed tyres, in WRC they can even use different tyres on one axle! Why is F1 sticking to the same compound all around?
This has bugged me for a while, we see teams struggling to get the fronts or rears to work, this could be a way to fix that. Let them use the best tyres for their car, none of that mandated 2 compound bs, some teams maybe decide to run soft and make 3 stops and another could run hard from start to finish (looking at you Checo).
What do you guys think?
How can you run two compounds in a race then you mix and match? It’s just something that is decided. “In the good old days” anything was possible. Prost won a GP by having 4 different compounds on his car! Plus, during the tire wars, especially the bespoke Bridgestones were fine tuned for each circuit.
I meant that they should change that rule, so that they wouldn't have to run two compounds. Aside from bringing refueling back I can't think of anything else that at least would give teams the opportunity to run different strategies. Pirelli can bring the same amount of tyres to the races as today, no added cost for anyone, no down side at all that I can think of.
Maybe the teams end up using the same tyres and same amount of pit stops but at least this would give them a choise to test something different. To force them to run 2 compounds is just artificial "exitement" to the show.

feni_remmen
3
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 15:43

Re: Mixed tyres?

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Interesting that I like the 2 compound rule as a strategy mixer, but I don’t think refueling helps this. Unfortunately all of this just makes it artificial.
If you reintroduce refueling, figuring out the refueling rate is the most important feature of this feature. Too fast and it will be 3~5 pit stops a race. Too slow and no one will use it. Plus it locks in strategic pathways, which I don’t like!

I’d prefer no refueling and a Tyre rule that says if you change tires during the race, you must run 2 different compounds. No other words... let them mix tyres sets, let them run fronts on the back, let them run backs on the front. No Tyre pressure rules, no camber rules... I understand why they’ve got these rules, I just don’t want them and I’m happy with the consequences. The teams are professional engineering organizations and should own their choices!

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Big Tea
99
Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Mixed tyres?

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If they want to stir up the strategy options, allocate the tyres to the team, not the cars and allow any tyres to be used.
At the extreme one car does not stop and uses the hardest the other stops 3 or 4 times and uses the softest.
The pitstop is just to entertain anyway.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

feni_remmen
3
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 15:43

Re: Mixed tyres?

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The problem here is not the limitations on options (though I’d like this freed up). The problem is the teams know what will work and what won’t. 1 car on a 4stopper versus 1 car on a 1 stopper is unlikely, just because the simulations will show how disparate the performance will be.

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Big Tea
99
Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Mixed tyres?

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feni_remmen wrote:
18 Dec 2020, 22:56
The problem here is not the limitations on options (though I’d like this freed up). The problem is the teams know what will work and what won’t. 1 car on a 4stopper versus 1 car on a 1 stopper is unlikely, just because the simulations will show how disparate the performance will be.
It seems that quite often there is little in it, and with the advent of more and more S/C's it could become tempting for all but the top 3 to to run a high odds car?
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

nokivasara
2
Joined: 27 Nov 2014, 20:53

Re: Mixed tyres?

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feni_remmen wrote:
18 Dec 2020, 22:56
The problem here is not the limitations on options (though I’d like this freed up). The problem is the teams know what will work and what won’t. 1 car on a 4stopper versus 1 car on a 1 stopper is unlikely, just because the simulations will show how disparate the performance will be.
Yep, and this is a problem with any rule change that is done to make the racing better. The simulations are so good and cover so many different scenarios that the teams will all drift towards one solution. Maybe it's the advances in simulations that is killing the racing in F1, and not fuel/tire/pitstop/aero/drs rules?

ENGINE TUNER
25
Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 18:07

Re: Mixed tyres?

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The problem is the pirelli tires, they have a built in thermal "fuse" in them that makes lose performance when pushed hard or overheated. You will rarely get alternate strategies when there is only 1 way to correctly run the tires, and that is at about 8/10ths. We already see that the soft tires must be driven very easy on an out lap and can not withstand a full qually lap without overheating and losing a large portion of its maximum grip.

The tires are garbage and nothing will improve about F1 until that is sorted. That is why the drivers are starting to be more vocal and complain when asked.

And no, NOBODY ASKED THEM TO PROVIDE THE TRASH THAT THEY DO. FOM asked them to make tires that will force the teams into 2 or more stops per race(a foolish request), but pirelli are even incapable of that, most races are won on 1 stop strategies.

F1 needs better tires full stop. If the cars can get closer together on the racetrack in '22, the tires will still let them down.

Unfortunately the only way out of this pirelli tire death spiral is a tire war, but only a tire war that avoids the problems of the previous tire wars. No teams directly contracted to tire companies, tire companies can only bring 1 spec of dry tire to every race and must be willing and able to provide EVERY team with tires. Every tire company provides 1 dry tire set to each team in Fp1 and fp2 , and the teams choose what tire company they will qualify and race on. 5 or 6 sets of long life dry tires for the weekend. Less tires means less tire marbles and better opportunities to pass offline.Tire changes permitted, but not required. Start the race on the same set you had on your fast qually lap.
Last edited by ENGINE TUNER on 20 Dec 2020, 01:46, edited 1 time in total.

michl420
19
Joined: 18 Apr 2010, 17:08
Location: Austria

Re: Mixed tyres?

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feni_remmen wrote:
17 Dec 2020, 21:51
Interesting that I like the 2 compound rule as a strategy mixer, but I don’t think refueling helps this. Unfortunately all of this just makes it artificial.
If you reintroduce refueling, figuring out the refueling rate is the most important feature of this feature. Too fast and it will be 3~5 pit stops a race. Too slow and no one will use it. Plus it locks in strategic pathways, which I don’t like!

I’d prefer no refueling and a Tyre rule that says if you change tires during the race, you must run 2 different compounds. No other words... let them mix tyres sets, let them run fronts on the back, let them run backs on the front. No Tyre pressure rules, no camber rules... I understand why they’ve got these rules, I just don’t want them and I’m happy with the consequences. The teams are professional engineering organizations and should own their choices!
My main viewpoint is the less rules the better. As you say about refueling, it is ok how it is but with refueling there is more room for strategie. About refueling speed, you are right, but 3-5 pit stops is still better then everyone just 1. About Tyres, the rules are crazy, I would give the team the tyres and some recommendations and let them do what they want. If they have a tyre failure, they will do something different in the next race.

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JordanMugen
82
Joined: 17 Oct 2018, 13:36

Re: Mixed tyres?

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feni_remmen wrote:
17 Dec 2020, 09:49
It’s always bemusing to me why people would want to mandate pitstops.
Because otherwise the drivers cruise around saving tyres and it's boring. :wink:

Sticking on a fresh set and pushing to attempt an undercut or overtake provides far more action, and F1 is an entertainment product after all.

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JordanMugen
82
Joined: 17 Oct 2018, 13:36

Re: Mixed tyres?

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
20 Dec 2020, 01:31
F1 needs better tires full stop. If the cars can get closer together on the racetrack in '22, the tires will still let them down.
Hankook tendered for 2020-2023 but were rejected. :|

feni_remmen wrote:
17 Dec 2020, 21:51
I’d prefer no refueling and a Tyre rule that says if you change tires during the race, you must run 2 different compounds. No other words... let them mix tyres sets, let them run fronts on the back, let them run backs on the front. No Tyre pressure rules, no camber rules... I understand why they’ve got these rules, I just don’t want them and I’m happy with the consequences. The teams are professional engineering organizations and should own their choices!
It's a safety issue. Race teams will always chase maximum performance at the expense of safety. That's why there have to be crash tests and crash structure rules, instead of letting teams do as they please.

feni_remmen
3
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 15:43

Re: Mixed tyres?

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JordanMugen wrote:
30 Jan 2021, 07:17
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
20 Dec 2020, 01:31
F1 needs better tires full stop. If the cars can get closer together on the racetrack in '22, the tires will still let them down.
Hankook tendered for 2020-2023 but were rejected. :|

feni_remmen wrote:
17 Dec 2020, 21:51
I’d prefer no refueling and a Tyre rule that says if you change tires during the race, you must run 2 different compounds. No other words... let them mix tyres sets, let them run fronts on the back, let them run backs on the front. No Tyre pressure rules, no camber rules... I understand why they’ve got these rules, I just don’t want them and I’m happy with the consequences. The teams are professional engineering organizations and should own their choices!
It's a safety issue. Race teams will always chase maximum performance at the expense of safety. That's why there have to be crash tests and crash structure rules, instead of letting teams do as they please.
Yep.