McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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theriusDR3
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McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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McLaren F1 Team raced in Formula 1 since 1966 until present but ironically McLaren never intend to build its' own in-house F1 engines like Scuderia Ferrari did.

Please tell me the real reasons!

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shotzski
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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Mclaren started just as a racing team. Where as Ferrari, Merc, etc are already established car manufacturers who compete in motor racing.
Mclaren also don't have the financial might of the said automotive companies in F1 to make their own engines.

FYI: even their own road cars' engines are produced by RICARDO Engineering.

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JordanMugen
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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theriusDR3 wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:28 am
McLaren F1 Team raced in Formula 1 since 1966 until present but ironically McLaren never intend to build its' own in-house F1 engines like Scuderia Ferrari did.
Very good point!

One would have thought it would be relatively trivial for McLaren to reverse engineer their own Cosworth DFV engines in the 1970's...? :?: Of course, at the time McLaren were not a road car manufacturer, and even the road car manufacturer Lotus was not building their own engines (indeed receiving Cosworths for free, as works Ford engines!).

I guess given the both low price and high competitiveness of the Cosworth engine and Hewland gearbox, there was little incentive for garagistes to make their own engine and gearbox? (Despite the loss of prestige from this decision?)

However, garaiste teams seemed more interested in winning than prestige, with many garaistes having rudimentary motor homes, factories and transporters compared to the elite, prestigious continental teams such as Scuderia Ferrari and Renault... :wink:

It is bizarre that despite the loss of face to British garagistes, Mercedes Benz and Alpine, proudly German and French marques, find it necessary to build their Formula One race cars in England to this day! :shock: :shock:

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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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Arguably the TAG branded engines used in the 80s were McLaren/Porsche/Barnard designed. What level of internal to external manufacture qualifies something as "it's own"? Companies use external suppliers for all sorts of things.
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JordanMugen
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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jjn9128 wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:16 pm
Arguably the TAG branded engines used in the 80s were McLaren/Porsche/Barnard designed. What level of internal to external manufacture qualifies something as "it's own"? Companies use external suppliers for all sorts of things.
Did Honda make a mistake dropping the slick Williams outfit, to supply McLaren instead?

A Williams that would, in short order, go on to overtake McLaren in technology terms. And by the mid-90's to late-90's comprehensively outperform McLaren. :shock:

[Before Williams themselves fell (back) into the non-manufacturer team abyss and later non-Newey abyss despite BMW rockets. :wtf: ]

Perhaps McLaren V10s would have outperformed the relatively unreliable Illmor Mercedes items which hampered the tightly packaged Newey designs!? :shock:

On the other hand, Dennis seemed almost desperate for works engines -- trying Peugeot before poaching Mercedes. Offering (eventually) part-ownership, livery and so forth, and happily accepting the free engines and piles of sponsorship.

If works McLaren engines were a superior tactic, why did Dennis not establish an engine division!?!? :wtf:

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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:52 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:16 pm
Arguably the TAG branded engines used in the 80s were McLaren/Porsche/Barnard designed. What level of internal to external manufacture qualifies something as "it's own"? Companies use external suppliers for all sorts of things.
Did Honda make a mistake dropping the slick Williams outfit, to supply McLaren instead?

A Williams that would, in short order, go on to overtake McLaren in technology terms. And by the mid-90's to late-90's comprehensively outperform McLaren. :shock:

[Before Williams themselves fell (back) into the non-manufacturer team abyss and later non-Newey abyss despite BMW rockets. :wtf: ]

Perhaps McLaren V10s would have outperformed the relatively unreliable Illmor Mercedes items which hampered the tightly packaged Newey designs!? :shock:

On the other hand, Dennis seemed almost desperate for works engines -- trying Peugeot before poaching Mercedes. Offering (eventually) part-ownership, livery and so forth, and happily accepting the free engines and piles of sponsorship.

If works McLaren engines were a superior tactic, why did Dennis not establish an engine division!?!? :wtf:
It was in fact Honda that was the reason that McLaren fell short on tech with Williams. Honda insisted that they kept developing the electronics, while Williams had a more integrated view with electronics, hydraulics and engine. Also, although the Honda engine was very powerful it also lacked the refinement of later versions of the Renault engine like pneumatics. Honda's view were just a bit outdated. When they split up, Dennis established the McLaren electronics department, making all that was needed to run the Ford V8 and the car suspension etc in-house.

Hoffman900
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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I mean, outside Ferrari, there haven't been that many manufacturers with a works team, beyond the 1950s at least.

Most were chassis constructors buying engines from manufacturers.

Jolle
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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As why McLaren doesn't build it's own engine: History and money.

McLaren started off as one of many constructors that would build with a handful of engineers a car around sourced parts, like Brabham, Lotus, Liger, Matra, etc. In later years the Cosworth engine gave a cheap and reliable way to go racing.
When the turbo's hit in the early eighties, McLaren was already taken over by Project Four racing together with PMI and commissioned about 30 V6 turbo engines from Porsche, under the TAG (from one of the McLaren owner Ojjeh).
The first real opportunity to build their own engines came when the Porsche engines became old and slow compared to the competition but, a deal with Honda was made instead. When this deal ended at the end of '92, there must be talks with several racing engine builders to commission a new power unit... And in the history of McLaren this is for sure the point where it would have made the most sense, but... they didn't and went for a customer ford instead. Good chance that the quite single minded Dennis' thought pattern was that an engine is what the other guys make, like Williams had with Renault.
After another switch with Peugeot came Mercedes. Technically after a few years, when PMI pulled out, they were making their own engines. Mercedes took a majority stake in McLaren as well as Illmor that build the engines (they had more control over the McLaren team then than they have over the Mercedes team now).

After the initial split in 2009 and the final split in 2014, McLaren simple doesn't have the resources to buy/build an engine.

so, in history they did, twice, with the TAG and under Mercedes ownership and should have done once.

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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:30 pm
I mean, outside Ferrari, there haven't been that many manufacturers with a works team, beyond the 1950s at least.

Most were chassis constructors buying engines from manufacturers.
Alfa Romeo, BMW, Renault, Ford, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, Lancia, BRM, Maserati, Vanwall, Porsche, Gordini, Matra, etc, etc.

Most British constructors didn't made their own engines, others did.

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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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Jolle wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:50 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:30 pm
I mean, outside Ferrari, there haven't been that many manufacturers with a works team, beyond the 1950s at least.

Most were chassis constructors buying engines from manufacturers.
Alfa Romeo, BMW, Renault, Ford, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, Lancia, BRM, Maserati, Vanwall, Porsche, Gordini, Matra, etc, etc.

Most British constructors didn't made their own engines, others did.
Years would be useful ;)

Jolle
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:52 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:50 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:30 pm
I mean, outside Ferrari, there haven't been that many manufacturers with a works team, beyond the 1950s at least.

Most were chassis constructors buying engines from manufacturers.
Alfa Romeo, BMW, Renault, Ford, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, Lancia, BRM, Maserati, Vanwall, Porsche, Gordini, Matra, etc, etc.

Most British constructors didn't made their own engines, others did.
Years would be useful ;)
during the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's, 10's, and 20's there were multiple engine manufactures who also ran a chassis under their name. Even now, we have 3.

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El Scorchio
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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In terms of British engine manufacturing, I know they concentrate on aerospace, but have Rolls-Royce ever come close to entering F1?

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jjn9128
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:27 pm
In terms of British engine manufacturing, I know they concentrate on aerospace, but have Rolls-Royce ever come close to entering F1?
Not sure formula 1 but old Grand Prix cars were basically “retired” fighter aircraft engines bolted to a chassis. So probably a rolls engine was used at one point.

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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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jjn9128 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:07 pm
Not sure formula 1 but old Grand Prix cars were basically “retired” fighter aircraft engines bolted to a chassis. So probably a rolls engine was used at one point.
well ....
by the time there were fighter aircraft (WW1) the GPs were limited to 3 litres, then 2 litres, then 1.5
(the winning 1914 Mercedes 4.5 litre GP engine was studied asap in WW1 by RR and others)

the Vanwall block was cast using the patterns for a RR military 4 cylinder engine (Vandervell asked, RR said yes)
they altered the patterns a bit

RR also designed and made the supercharger etc etc for the V16 BRM


McLaren did their own engine in 1966 F1
a 4.2 litre Indy Ford dohc V8 destroked to 3 litres by Stellite spraying new big end journals
hugely over-ported and over-valved it went slightly better when they used smaller inlet tracts (ex Chrysler)
so got a point at Monte Carlo

Brabham modified road car (215 Oldsmobile) pushrod ohv V8 aluminium blocks to win ....
1966 and 1967 F1 WDCs and WCCs (after a while they cast the blocks themselves)

Aston Martin made an F1 car and engine

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El Scorchio
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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jjn9128 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:07 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:27 pm
In terms of British engine manufacturing, I know they concentrate on aerospace, but have Rolls-Royce ever come close to entering F1?
Not sure formula 1 but old Grand Prix cars were basically “retired” fighter aircraft engines bolted to a chassis. So probably a rolls engine was used at one point.
Thanks! Interesting. I had always thought that F1 could have been very tempting for them in the past, but didn’t know if they ever actually gave it a go or not.