McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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Marty_Y
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:15 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:07 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:27 pm
In terms of British engine manufacturing, I know they concentrate on aerospace, but have Rolls-Royce ever come close to entering F1?
Not sure formula 1 but old Grand Prix cars were basically “retired” fighter aircraft engines bolted to a chassis. So probably a rolls engine was used at one point.
Thanks! Interesting. I had always thought that F1 could have been very tempting for them in the past, but didn’t know if they ever actually gave it a go or not.
Mercedes early f1 cars used aerospace tech,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W196

"Firsts included the use of desmodromic valves and Daimler-Benz developed mechanical direct fuel injection adapted from the DB 601 high-performance V12 used on the Messerschmitt Bf 109E fighter during World War II."

"The new 1954 Formula One rules allowed a choice of naturally aspirated engines – up to 2.5 litres or 0.75 litres supercharged. The expected target range for competitive engines was 250 to 300 bhp (190 to 220 kW).

Mercedes' 1939 2-stage supercharged 1.5-litre 64.0×58.0 mm V8 (1,493 cc or 91.1 cu in) gave 278 bhp (207 kW) at 8,250 rpm with about 2.7 atm (270 kPa) pressure. Halving this would have only produced 139 bhp (104 kW).

Studies by Mercedes showed that 390 bhp (290 kW) at 10,000 rpm could be achieved from 0.75 litres with a supercharger pressure of 4.4 atm (450 kPa), with 100 hp (75 kW) required to drive the supercharger. Fuel consumption of this 290 bhp (220 kW) net engine would have been 2.3 times higher than a naturally aspirated one developing the same power. Since 115 bhp/l (86 kW/l) at 9,000 rpm was being developed by naturally aspirated motorcycle racing engines, it was decided that a 2.5-litre engine was the correct choice. This was a significant change of philosophy, since all previous Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix engines since the 1920s had been supercharged. Mercedes' solution was to adapt direct fuel injection Daimler-Benz engineers had refined on the DB 601 high-performance V12 used on the Messerschmitt Bf 109E fighter.

By its introduction at the 1954 French GP the 2,496.87 cc (152.368 cu in) (76.0×68.8 mm) desmodromic valves straight 8 delivered 257 bhp (192 kW). The W196 was the only F1 car with such advanced fuel technology, giving it a considerable advantage over the other carburetted engines. Variable length inlet tracts were experimented with and four wheel drive considered. An eventual 340 bhp (250 kW) at 10,000 rpm was targeted for the 2.5-litre F1 motor."

Tommy Cookers
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:15 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:07 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:27 pm
In terms of British engine manufacturing, I know they concentrate on aerospace, but have Rolls-Royce ever come close to entering F1?
Not sure formula 1 but old Grand Prix cars were basically “retired” fighter aircraft engines bolted to a chassis. So probably a rolls engine was used at one point.
Thanks! Interesting. I had always thought that F1 could have been very tempting for them in the past, but didn’t know if they ever actually gave it a go or not.
I don't know what people are seeing what here .... but ....

old GP cars were never ''aircraft engines bolted to a chassis'
because GPs were engine-unlimited (consumption-limited) only till 1911 (GP racing then collapsing)
GP racing resumed in 1914 4.5 litre engine-limited and thereafter remained limited

post WW1 big old cars with eg war surplus aircraft engines competed on straights or the eg oval track eg Brooklands
Chitty Chitty Bang Bang was such - 27 litre Liberty engine and name from obscene 'gallows humour' WW1 aviator's song
(ok early 1920s 300 hp Fiat was a factory car with their hot aircraft engine - then there was the Napier-Railton)

often 1920s eg Sunbeam and Delage and other record cars had eg special V12s related to 2 litre GP engines

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El Scorchio
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:20 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:15 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:07 pm

Not sure formula 1 but old Grand Prix cars were basically “retired” fighter aircraft engines bolted to a chassis. So probably a rolls engine was used at one point.
Thanks! Interesting. I had always thought that F1 could have been very tempting for them in the past, but didn’t know if they ever actually gave it a go or not.
I don't know what people are seeing what here .... but ....

old GP cars were never ''aircraft engines bolted to a chassis'
because GPs were engine-unlimited (consumption-limited) only till 1911 (GP racing then collapsing)
GP racing resumed in 1914 4.5 litre engine-limited and thereafter remained limited

post WW1 big old cars with eg war surplus aircraft engines competed on straights or the eg oval track eg Brooklands
Chitty Chitty Bang Bang was such - 27 litre Liberty engine and name from obscene 'gallows humour' WW1 aviator's song
(ok early 1920s 300 hp Fiat was a factory car with their hot aircraft engine - then there was the Napier-Railton)

often 1920s eg Sunbeam and Delage and other record cars had eg special V12s related to 2 litre GP engines
I'm not seeing anything. I just asked the more knowledgeable F1 historians a question.

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jjn9128
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:20 am
I don't know what people are seeing what here .... but ....

old GP cars were never ''aircraft engines bolted to a chassis'
because GPs were engine-unlimited (consumption-limited) only till 1911 (GP racing then collapsing)
GP racing resumed in 1914 4.5 litre engine-limited and thereafter remained limited

post WW1 big old cars with eg war surplus aircraft engines competed on straights or the eg oval track eg Brooklands
Chitty Chitty Bang Bang was such - 27 litre Liberty engine and name from obscene 'gallows humour' WW1 aviator's song
(ok early 1920s 300 hp Fiat was a factory car with their hot aircraft engine - then there was the Napier-Railton)

often 1920s eg Sunbeam and Delage and other record cars had eg special V12s related to 2 litre GP engines
My fault :oops:

Thought the aero-engine cars did some early GPs.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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El Scorchio
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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Marty_Y wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:58 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:15 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:07 pm


Not sure formula 1 but old Grand Prix cars were basically “retired” fighter aircraft engines bolted to a chassis. So probably a rolls engine was used at one point.
Thanks! Interesting. I had always thought that F1 could have been very tempting for them in the past, but didn’t know if they ever actually gave it a go or not.
Mercedes early f1 cars used aerospace tech,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W196

"Firsts included the use of desmodromic valves and Daimler-Benz developed mechanical direct fuel injection adapted from the DB 601 high-performance V12 used on the Messerschmitt Bf 109E fighter during World War II."

"The new 1954 Formula One rules allowed a choice of naturally aspirated engines – up to 2.5 litres or 0.75 litres supercharged. The expected target range for competitive engines was 250 to 300 bhp (190 to 220 kW).

Mercedes' 1939 2-stage supercharged 1.5-litre 64.0×58.0 mm V8 (1,493 cc or 91.1 cu in) gave 278 bhp (207 kW) at 8,250 rpm with about 2.7 atm (270 kPa) pressure. Halving this would have only produced 139 bhp (104 kW).

Studies by Mercedes showed that 390 bhp (290 kW) at 10,000 rpm could be achieved from 0.75 litres with a supercharger pressure of 4.4 atm (450 kPa), with 100 hp (75 kW) required to drive the supercharger. Fuel consumption of this 290 bhp (220 kW) net engine would have been 2.3 times higher than a naturally aspirated one developing the same power. Since 115 bhp/l (86 kW/l) at 9,000 rpm was being developed by naturally aspirated motorcycle racing engines, it was decided that a 2.5-litre engine was the correct choice. This was a significant change of philosophy, since all previous Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix engines since the 1920s had been supercharged. Mercedes' solution was to adapt direct fuel injection Daimler-Benz engineers had refined on the DB 601 high-performance V12 used on the Messerschmitt Bf 109E fighter.

By its introduction at the 1954 French GP the 2,496.87 cc (152.368 cu in) (76.0×68.8 mm) desmodromic valves straight 8 delivered 257 bhp (192 kW). The W196 was the only F1 car with such advanced fuel technology, giving it a considerable advantage over the other carburetted engines. Variable length inlet tracts were experimented with and four wheel drive considered. An eventual 340 bhp (250 kW) at 10,000 rpm was targeted for the 2.5-litre F1 motor."
Also interesting! Thanks.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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theriusDR3 wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:28 am
McLaren F1 Team raced in Formula 1 since 1966 until present but ironically McLaren never intend to build its' own in-house F1 engines like Scuderia Ferrari did.

Please tell me the real reasons!
They don't have the balls.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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theriusDR3 wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:28 am
McLaren F1 Team raced in Formula 1 since 1966 until present but ironically McLaren never intend to build its' own in-house F1 engines like Scuderia Ferrari did.

Please tell me the real reasons!
Ferrari started with other people's cars and engines before building his own. Ferrari's first engine was in the 1940s and that, in modified form, powered a diverse range of cars from early F1 to road-going GTs in the 1980s. Having that from early on in the company's history meant they were able to carry on building their own engines as F1 developed - they had the foundry and machinery required.

McLaren started much later and was just a single guy designing and building his own car to race in. Buying in engines made total sense. Then as F1 progressed, most teams bought in engines - the Ford DFV was used by just about everyone other than Ferrari, for example. It made no sense to build their own engines at that point. From then on, it made no sense to set up an engine foundry for just two cars. Ferrari's foundry makes all of their engines so they have economy of scale.

These days, many manufacturers share engines (and even entire cars bar some styling changes) because costs to develop things are so high. McLaren's road cars use engines built for them by a third party supplier (Riccardo).
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Just_a_fan
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:00 am
theriusDR3 wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:28 am
McLaren F1 Team raced in Formula 1 since 1966 until present but ironically McLaren never intend to build its' own in-house F1 engines like Scuderia Ferrari did.

Please tell me the real reasons!
They don't have the balls.
They don't have the money. Balls has nothing to do with it.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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Mclaren has been smart enough to secure huge amounts of money and talent I would say. I felt building engines was just not considered to be a core business for them. I mean Hyundai makes pretty good engines today but not long ago you wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole. The likes of Hyundai sell cars yes, and it took decadrs for them, but pretty sure Mclaren would have thought of something back then for funding. The risk reward just didn't appeal to them I guess.
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Stu
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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jjn9128 wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:16 pm
Arguably the TAG branded engines used in the 80s were McLaren/Porsche/Barnard designed. What level of internal to external manufacture qualifies something as "it's own"? Companies use external suppliers for all sorts of things.
Prior to that, as far as I can recall, they were one of the few teams to purchase DFV engines (mist were leased) and run their own rebuild/upgrade scheme through Nicholson/Maclaren Engines. They were fairly prolific as an engine supplier into F3000 when it started up (using DFV derivatives).
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

Jolle
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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Stu wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:39 am
jjn9128 wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:16 pm
Arguably the TAG branded engines used in the 80s were McLaren/Porsche/Barnard designed. What level of internal to external manufacture qualifies something as "it's own"? Companies use external suppliers for all sorts of things.
Prior to that, as far as I can recall, they were one of the few teams to purchase DFV engines (mist were leased) and run their own rebuild/upgrade scheme through Nicholson/Maclaren Engines. They were fairly prolific as an engine supplier into F3000 when it started up (using DFV derivatives).
This was quite common during the DFV years. Lots of engine manufacturers started off as DFV tuners (like Hart and Judd). Cosworth engines were bought, not leased.

marcush
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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This is factually wrong , the TAG -porsche engine was infact a Mclaren (TAG ) financed project, no porsche budget.Mansour Ojeh joined Mclaren as shareholder

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Jambier
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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It is not that simple to start from scratch

Just look at Red Bull Powertrain, even with an already existing engine, it will finally still be Honda building it

NL_Fer
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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When chassis-engine integration became a thing, they just teamed up with Mercedes and became their worx partner for 15 years. They lost that once Mercedes took in Honda’s former team Brawn F1 and were lost since.

They could have made the step to develop their own V6 Hybrid, but they didn’t have the money for it. They even needed for Honda to finance the team.

Jolle
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Re: McLaren Formula 1 team irony, many years raced in F1 but yet to build its' own engines like Scuderia Ferrari did

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 2:14 pm
When chassis-engine integration became a thing, they just teamed up with Mercedes and became their worx partner for 15 years. They lost that once Mercedes took in Honda’s former team Brawn F1 and were lost since.

They could have made the step to develop their own V6 Hybrid, but they didn’t have the money for it. They even needed for Honda to finance the team.
It’s a bit more complex.
Late 1990’s Daimler took a large stake in McLaren (40%) and halfway trough the 2000’s they were on their way to purchase another 40%, making McLaren what is AMG today.
Then spygate happened, and the disagreement plus ambitions of Ron Dennis about the MP4-12C and the SLS and they broke up. Mercedes had a way out buying Brawn and sold their shares of McLaren in pre-determined portions between 2009 and 2012.
Fun thing is, they owned more of McLaren then they do now of their own team (40 vs 30%).