2022 Alpine F1 Team

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TimW
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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organic wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:10 am
Rossi interview, mostly about Piastri: https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... huldfrage/

Translation here using DeepL

(Rossi) ...... Should we continue the junior programm at all? How can we prevent that we develop young drivers for other teams?

How can you solve this dilemma?
Rossi: By taking over the management of the drivers in the academy ourselves, and by not allowing any third parties (= don't allow drivers to have their own managers). We are not a charity
Rossi has pretty sick ideas on how you can treat people. There is already a huge imbalance in the negotiations between a big company like Renault and a young, often teenager, drivers in the academy. And he does not want to allow them even to have their own counsel.

If he wanted to keep Piastri, he should just have offered him a better deal. Maybe Rossi's ideas about how to do business were part of the decision as well.

They can just as well stop their junior program. The way he keeps on blaming and portraying Piastri as evil in the media, any young driver hopefully thinks twice before joining their program.

basti313
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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TimW wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:45 am
organic wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:10 am
Rossi interview, mostly about Piastri: https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... huldfrage/

Translation here using DeepL

(Rossi) ...... Should we continue the junior programm at all? How can we prevent that we develop young drivers for other teams?

How can you solve this dilemma?
Rossi: By taking over the management of the drivers in the academy ourselves, and by not allowing any third parties (= don't allow drivers to have their own managers). We are not a charity
Rossi has pretty sick ideas on how you can treat people. There is already a huge imbalance in the negotiations between a big company like Renault and a young, often teenager, drivers in the academy. And he does not want to allow them even to have their own counsel.

If he wanted to keep Piastri, he should just have offered him a better deal. Maybe Rossi's ideas about how to do business were part of the decision as well.

They can just as well stop their junior program. The way he keeps on blaming and portraying Piastri as evil in the media, any young driver hopefully thinks twice before joining their program.
Well, he is right, isn't he? At least regarding the managers involved...
It was not about "treatment", Alpine treated Piastri too good. It was a simply issue, Alpine invested fortunes in Piastri and wanted him to sign the contract. At some point the manager (Webber or Flavio???) realized that they keep on investing even if the signature is pending...so he suggested the dirty trick to simply wait and see if they keep investing. This is very evil, this is no way to do business together.

But Alpine is also very wrong on this...this is like keeping inviting a customer to business dinners if he does not sign the deal. At some point a professional manager must stop being desperate and make the decisions happen. This screams of weak management....no proper decision making.

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organic
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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TimW wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:45 am
organic wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:10 am
Rossi interview, mostly about Piastri: https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... huldfrage/

Translation here using DeepL

(Rossi) ...... Should we continue the junior programm at all? How can we prevent that we develop young drivers for other teams?

How can you solve this dilemma?
Rossi: By taking over the management of the drivers in the academy ourselves, and by not allowing any third parties (= don't allow drivers to have their own managers). We are not a charity
Rossi has pretty sick ideas on how you can treat people. There is already a huge imbalance in the negotiations between a big company like Renault and a young, often teenager, drivers in the academy. And he does not want to allow them even to have their own counsel.

If he wanted to keep Piastri, he should just have offered him a better deal. Maybe Rossi's ideas about how to do business were part of the decision as well.

They can just as well stop their junior program. The way he keeps on blaming and portraying Piastri as evil in the media, any young driver hopefully thinks twice before joining their program.
Indeed. He seems out of touch with reality; another quote I'd pick out is:
Did Piastri never tell you that he didn't want to ride for Alpine anymore?

Rossi: Yes, he did. He was disappointed that we were going for Alonso and not him straight away. And he didn't want to drive for Williams. We told him that he can be happy with what he gets.
Their whole altitude feels wrong considering the level of talent that Piastri would seem to be

TimW
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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basti313 wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:23 am



Well, he is right, isn't he? At least regarding the managers involved...
It was not about "treatment", Alpine treated Piastri too good. It was a simply issue, Alpine invested fortunes in Piastri and wanted him to sign the contract. At some point the manager (Webber or Flavio???) realized that they keep on investing even if the signature is pending...so he suggested the dirty trick to simply wait and see if they keep investing. This is very evil, this is no way to do business together.

But Alpine is also very wrong on this...this is like keeping inviting a customer to business dinners if he does not sign the deal. At some point a professional manager must stop being desperate and make the decisions happen. This screams of weak management....no proper decision making.
They signed a terms sheet in November, and Alpine said they'd come with the full contract in two weeks. Instead they only offered it in May, six months later. By then Piastri surely will have been doubting if they were willing to commit to him.

Your post from another viewpoint: Piastri was too good to Alpine. He invested all his time in the team and put his career in their hands. But they seemed hesitant to commit to him with Alonso on the team. At some point he could not risk wasting his talent and had to look for other options.

Rossi sees this from the viewpoint 'the driver must thank us for offering him a drive' (like many managers are like 'the employee is lucky that we give him a job). Piastri see this from the viewpoint 'I have a talent that could strengthen your team'. (My advice is to take that standpoint as well in salary negotiations)

Rossi's mistake was that he assumed he was holding all the cards, when he was not.

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djos
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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This is exactly!
Toxic Leadership 101: Ignorance & Arrogance Leads to Failure
https://vocal.media/motivation/toxic-le ... to-failure
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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diffuser
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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djos wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:35 pm
This is exactly!
Toxic Leadership 101: Ignorance & Arrogance Leads to Failure
https://vocal.media/motivation/toxic-le ... to-failure
Could be alot of things, more likely is that the org is still a work-in-progress and he needs to make someone responsible for the contracts or something along those lines.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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TimW wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:08 pm
basti313 wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:23 am



Well, he is right, isn't he? At least regarding the managers involved...
It was not about "treatment", Alpine treated Piastri too good. It was a simply issue, Alpine invested fortunes in Piastri and wanted him to sign the contract. At some point the manager (Webber or Flavio???) realized that they keep on investing even if the signature is pending...so he suggested the dirty trick to simply wait and see if they keep investing. This is very evil, this is no way to do business together.

But Alpine is also very wrong on this...this is like keeping inviting a customer to business dinners if he does not sign the deal. At some point a professional manager must stop being desperate and make the decisions happen. This screams of weak management....no proper decision making.
They signed a terms sheet in November, and Alpine said they'd come with the full contract in two weeks. Instead they only offered it in May, six months later. By then Piastri surely will have been doubting if they were willing to commit to him.

Your post from another viewpoint: Piastri was too good to Alpine. He invested all his time in the team and put his career in their hands. But they seemed hesitant to commit to him with Alonso on the team. At some point he could not risk wasting his talent and had to look for other options.

Rossi sees this from the viewpoint 'the driver must thank us for offering him a drive' (like many managers are like 'the employee is lucky that we give him a job). Piastri see this from the viewpoint 'I have a talent that could strengthen your team'. (My advice is to take that standpoint as well in salary negotiations)

Rossi's mistake was that he assumed he was holding all the cards, when he was not.
Exactly. The arrogance of Alpine is shocking and led to them loose a huge talent and a huge promise

They assumed everbody should be eager to drive for them, even when they´re far from the top for decades, so reality kicked them in the butt. End of story

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diffuser
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:49 am
TimW wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:08 pm
basti313 wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:23 am



Well, he is right, isn't he? At least regarding the managers involved...
It was not about "treatment", Alpine treated Piastri too good. It was a simply issue, Alpine invested fortunes in Piastri and wanted him to sign the contract. At some point the manager (Webber or Flavio???) realized that they keep on investing even if the signature is pending...so he suggested the dirty trick to simply wait and see if they keep investing. This is very evil, this is no way to do business together.

But Alpine is also very wrong on this...this is like keeping inviting a customer to business dinners if he does not sign the deal. At some point a professional manager must stop being desperate and make the decisions happen. This screams of weak management....no proper decision making.
They signed a terms sheet in November, and Alpine said they'd come with the full contract in two weeks. Instead they only offered it in May, six months later. By then Piastri surely will have been doubting if they were willing to commit to him.

Your post from another viewpoint: Piastri was too good to Alpine. He invested all his time in the team and put his career in their hands. But they seemed hesitant to commit to him with Alonso on the team. At some point he could not risk wasting his talent and had to look for other options.

Rossi sees this from the viewpoint 'the driver must thank us for offering him a drive' (like many managers are like 'the employee is lucky that we give him a job). Piastri see this from the viewpoint 'I have a talent that could strengthen your team'. (My advice is to take that standpoint as well in salary negotiations)

Rossi's mistake was that he assumed he was holding all the cards, when he was not.
Exactly. The arrogance of Alpine is shocking and led to them loose a huge talent and a huge promise

They assumed everbody should be eager to drive for them, even when they´re far from the top for decades, so reality kicked them in the butt. End of story
Think it's naive to think he would go where they wanted without a contract. Not arrogance.
Also he did want to drive for Alpine, not for William's.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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Which is even more embarrasing since there is a free seat in Alpine. Pretty poor team management. They should have secured Alonso contract before Telling Piastri he will drive fornWilliams

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diffuser
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:06 pm
Which is even more embarrasing since there is a free seat in Alpine. Pretty poor team management. They should have secured Alonso contract before Telling Piastri he will drive fornWilliams
I'm just saying that Alpine have done a 7 on 10 Job this year, Compared to maybe a 5 on 10 the last 2 years. So they are getting better. Was this something they could have done without ? No Doudt.

Lets not jump up and down and say Rossi is terrible because of this. At then end of the day if Alpine suffer points, cause of this next year, he will get the blame. Now it's all about the recovery. If they sign Gasly, the odds are good they don't suffer much. Especially if Piastre is a dud.

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ringo
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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I am in full support of Rossi and Alpine. They were actually executing the contract that was outline in the Heads of Agreement. They did no wrong, and as he said put too much trust in Piastri showing basic human loyalty.
Those who are bashing Alpine need to stop and look on those key words..Alpine were executing the contract, delivering every step of the way in Piastri's favour. There was no uncertainty for Piastri, no risk of missing out. I feel he was misguided by greedy management. Alpine's development plan for him is actually a gift that no other young driver in F-1 has ever received.
Now Piastri will face the music against Lando. And Lando is no slouch, he may go into deffensive mode and end Piastri's career faster than it begun.
Piastri had the chance to drive a Williams for about a year or two, and even a sure deal of an Alpine when Alonso left.
This has the potential to be as big a mistake as Ricciardo leaving Redbull.
For Sure!!

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continuum16
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:20 pm
I am in full support of Rossi and Alpine. They were actually executing the contract that was outline in the Heads of Agreement. They did no wrong, and as he said put too much trust in Piastri showing basic human loyalty.
Those who are bashing Alpine need to stop and look on those key words..Alpine were executing the contract, delivering every step of the way in Piastri's favour. There was no uncertainty for Piastri, no risk of missing out. I feel he was misguided by greedy management. Alpine's development plan for him is actually a gift that no other young driver in F-1 has ever received.
Now Piastri will face the music against Lando. And Lando is no slouch, he may go into deffensive mode and end Piastri's career faster than it begun.
Piastri had the chance to drive a Williams for about a year or two, and even a sure deal of an Alpine when Alonso left.
This has the potential to be as big a mistake as Ricciardo leaving Redbull.
I see your point, but in reality nobody is blameless. A Heads of Agreement is not a legally binding contract (in most cases, including this one, based on the CRB decision). If Piastri and Alpine were so loyal to each other then drawing up a legally binding agreement should not have been difficult. The CRB decision does not read well for Alpine in terms of operational excellence, by any means. Where Alpine (and especially Rossi) need to be careful is the fallout. Whining about it publicly does no good at this point. Accept it and move on.

I agree it seems harsh for Piastri to essentially snub Williams with the guarantee of an Alpine seat in a few years. It worked OK for George at Mercedes. Plus McLaren isn't exactly on the greatest trajectory in 2022. However, I don't think his management was overly greedy; the point of management is to secure and negotiate contracts (not Heads of Agreements).

From Piastri's point of view, if you've already been out of racing for one year, there is at least defensible logic behind the idea of signing a guaranteed contract (from McLaren) rather than waiting on the promise of a contract that has failed to materialize in 6+ months (from Alpine/Williams). We have to also remember that Piastri was signed on July 4, before Vettel retired and kicked off all these shenanigans. At that point his options were McLaren 2023/24 or Williams 2023/24 with Alpine from 2025+.

Of course we don't know how good Piastri actually is. Is he a Leclerc or a Vandoorne? Ironically the only team with direct knowledge and data of Piastri in an F1 car is Alpine. Time will tell if this will be a Red Bull-Ricciardo situation. When Ricciardo left RB it had finished 2nd or 3rd in every season he was there plus won a race in all but one season. Alpine/Renault have finished 8th, 6th, 4th, 5th, 5th, 5th, and probably 4th in 2022, but are not remarkably closer to the front in terms of absolute pace than before.
"You can't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
- Mark Twain

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:20 pm
I am in full support of Rossi and Alpine. They were actually executing the contract that was outline in the Heads of Agreement. They did no wrong, and as he said put too much trust in Piastri showing basic human loyalty.
Those who are bashing Alpine need to stop and look on those key words.

It´s obvious you´re far from a businesman, when contracts, agreements, money and different offers are into play, talking about human loyalty is naive and childish... Business is business Ringo, if you need to appeal to loyalty that´s an evidence someone didn´t do his job properly and has no tools to defend his own interests.

That´s the point of contracts exactly, if Piastri moved out there´s only 2 options: 1- the contract was useless, someone need some leassons to prevent drivers moving out of the team even with a valid contract. 2- the contract was expired, then someone fall asleep and didn´t secure Piastri before his contract extinghises (ie, didn´t do his job).

ringo wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:20 pm
Alpine were executing the contract, delivering every step of the way in Piastri's favour.
Are you serious? Piastri strongly disagree

ringo wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:20 pm
There was no uncertainty for Piastri, no risk of missing out. Alpine's development plan for him is actually a gift that no other young driver in F-1 has ever received.
:lol:

That was fun Ringo, Lewis drove a winning car in his very first season in F1, Piastri offer is an insult for him compared to Lewis offer :wink:

Not saying he should have received a similar offer, far from that, but it´s you who said no other driver ever received a similar offer
ringo wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:20 pm
A I feel he was misguided by greedy management.
So... in your expertise opinion, a Manager who got a McLaren seat for next season, when his driver was going to drive for Williams for 1-2 seasons, then for Alpine, is a poor deal?

IMHO it´s a superb deal, that Manager deserves a good percentage for a perfect managment. Your fears about Lando destroying Piastri only shows poor confidence in Piastri, like saying he´s not good enough for McLaren, he should be in a Williams. If I was a F1 driver and my manager assume this, I´d instantly fire him. If he´s destroyed or not is Piastri problem, that´s his job. Manager job is providing best possible seat for his driver, and McLaren is obviously a much better seat than Williams


Alpine OTOH need to learn how contracts are written, and/or how to renew contracts before they expire to not depend on peoples loyalty :lol: . This is pretty basic in business world, any business, not only F1

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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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first post for me, long time reader, first poster et al:

I see your point Andres, and although my team is Alpine (being a Renault fan, alpine as its successor, progeny etc.) I can't help but feel the Williams (or any other) intro to F1 wouldn't have been bad for the likes of Piastri.

We know Mclaren is on a push to do better (much) then they are currently. So Piastri will be from day 1 under pressure (lots of it). Look at Vandoorne's foray into McLaren at a time when they where hellbent to push for greatness.

Ok, Vandoorne had the unfortune of being at Mcl at a time when they had their heads so far up their …. that they thought they where perfect, their car was perfect and the only thing letting them down was their drivers.. but he was a well respected driver and winner in the lower ranks, could have had a very good career in F1, if he hadn't ben at MCL in his first years.

Had Vandoorne been introduced at a better point with MCL, or in a lower car with less pressure we might have seen a George Russel like scenario.


All this to say that Piastri getting into MCL at a time when they need people to deliver, from the go, with a lot of pressure against a driver (lando) who is very competitive and at home in the team / the car... might turn sour for him.

Don't get me wrong, props to him for going for the big stuff straight away, but I don't feel like a gentle introduction into F1 is a bad thing per-se. Enough examples exist of drivers getting their bearings in a lower ranked team before moving on to do great things.

Dismissing a 1/2y Williams drive as something which is to be avoided at all cost is … well wrong in my opinion.
Hope he delivers quick enough for MCL, because I doubt his career will go well for him if he doesn't deliver at MCL quick enough.

With regards to contracts, I do feel that this will change somethings for future junior drivers.
I believe contracts will be more cutthroat from now on, not only from Alpine but also RB, Merc,...

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djos
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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The whole issue with Alpine is that they made lots of noises about looking after Oscar, but when the rubber hit the road, they gave him nothing. They made it perfectly clear they wanted to keep Alonso.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.