60 degree V8

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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coaster
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60 degree V8

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Yamaha, Ford and Volvo have all built 60 degree V8's of a cross plane crankshaft design.
The Volvo used a balance shaft which was a corrected version of the flawed Ford design.
The Yamaha was also flawed without a balance shaft.
Could a single plane crankshaft correct the balance issue acting as 2 four cylinder motors joined at the crankshaft?

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Stu
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Re: 60 degree V8

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coaster wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:09 am
Yamaha, Ford and Volvo have all built 60 degree V8's of a cross plane crankshaft design.
The Volvo used a balance shaft which was a corrected version of the flawed Ford design.
The Yamaha was also flawed without a balance shaft.
Could a single plane crankshaft correct the balance issue acting as 2 four cylinder motors joined at the crankshaft?
It would depend on the nature (and cause) of the imbalance. The firing order would likely be important. V6’s seem to work okay with a narrow included angle, whether that is related to cylinder count or crank (or a combination) I don’t know.
The (very) narrow VW VR6 (15 degree angle) would maybe provide some answers on that?
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

J.A.W.
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Re: 60 degree V8

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coaster wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:09 am
Yamaha, Ford and Volvo have all built 60 degree V8's of a cross plane crankshaft design.
The Volvo used a balance shaft which was a corrected version of the flawed Ford design.
The Yamaha was also flawed without a balance shaft.
Could a single plane crankshaft correct the balance issue acting as 2 four cylinder motors joined at the crankshaft?
Too easy, if you add another 4-cyl bank, at a 60 degree angle on the other side, (see Napier Lion);
or if 8 is truly your limit, then pair a brace of Aprilia (ok, 65 degree) V4s, to make it, perhaps?

Or, if space is tight, try a couple of these powerful, compact & light V4s?

http://www.aaenperformance.com/v4_racing_engine.asp
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(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 60 degree V8

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Stu wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:17 am
V6’s seem to work okay with a narrow included angle, whether that is related to cylinder count or crank (or a combination) I don’t know.
6 throw narrow angle V6s will have quite low vibration
3 throw narrow angle V6s won't


no the single plane crankshaft can't eliminate the vibration of a 60 degree V8
1st order force & moment vibrations cancellable with a 2 plane 8 throw crankshaft - the planes being at 60 degrees
(a 4 throw 2 plane would seemingly have some 1st order moment vibration remaining)

but the flat crank 60 deg V8 was sometimes used .....
eg RR Meteorite, and in quantity its distant US descendant the Ford GAA - GAN (Sherman tank etc)

RETRO-EDIT the Liberty V8 of course was a 45 degree V - 1st order vibration (forces) cancellable via a crossplane

iirc the GMC V8 (eg 637 inch gasoline) was 60 deg but had 8 throw crankshaft (for commonality with their 6 throw V6)
anyway it had a balance shaft
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:30 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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coaster
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Re: 60 degree V8

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The trail of crumbs for the Liberty led to;
https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit ... berty-l-8/
The L-8 suffered serious vibration problems and since the Hispano-Suiza 300-hp engine had already been perfected, development of the L-8 was halted after Buick of General Motors had built 15 at a cost of $3,000 each.

NL_Fer
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Re: 60 degree V8

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Does a 60 degree V8 have unmatching cilinders at TDC, with both flat and cross plane cranks?

It is like a Harley on steroids





Tommy Cookers
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Re: 60 degree V8

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the father of a friend drove a Sherman
one day in 1944 they found a Tiger (powered-down) 200 yds away - and commenced firing at it
the Tiger started to traverse its turret (by hand-cranking it)
the Tiger was hit five times before (said father etc then leaving) it demolished the Sherman

the father (Afro-Caribbean) of another friend was trained as a truck driver etc in WW1
very late in his life he suddenly recalled getting a job in the hard times of Mr Prohibition - via this engine knowledge
a job seemingly not unconnected to rum-running
it's said that the war-surplus Liberty was preferred for this

J.A.W.
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Re: 60 degree V8

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:26 pm
the father of a friend drove a Sherman
one day in 1944 they found a Tiger (powered-down) 200 yds away - and commenced firing at it
the Tiger started to traverse its turret (by hand-cranking it)
the Tiger was hit five times before (said father etc then leaving) it demolished the Sherman

the father (Afro-Caribbean) of another friend was trained as a truck driver etc in WW1
very late in his life he suddenly recalled getting a job in the hard times of Mr Prohibition - via this engine knowledge
a job seemingly not unconnected to rum-running
it's said that the war-surplus Liberty was preferred for this

Funnily enough T-C, 'Tommy Cooker' was a sneering nickname the Sherman tank gained from its
propensity to readily 'cook-off' its ammunition when shot through by Nazi weapons.

I recall asking a relative who served in Italy with NZ forces - they had (GM Detroit Diesel powered)
Sherman tanks - if the fuel type had anything to do with it, & he reckoned that diesel was safer,
unless the fuel tank was actually hit, & by something hard enough to make it explode, otherwise
it would give you more time to bail out, (plus the GM D-D power-unit when properly maintained
was more reliable/had longer endurance).

As for Liberty engines, British tanks built by Nuffield used them in WWII, but sadly, the 1/2-arsed
accessory units & drives* applied tended to let the plot down, esp' in heat/dust/grit desert usage.


*Something repeated ~25 years later when the Chieftain tank was similarly let down by the same
issues as they appended to the basically sound Leyland opposed-piston 2-stroke diesel powerplant.
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

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coaster
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Re: 60 degree V8

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Master Milo from Holland with his Kuwait war tank restoration is about the extent of my tank know how.
Tamiya used to make die cast RC tanks in 1980's, quite valueable I believe.

Edit, back on topic the Vr6 is simply an evolution the 'flying arm' concept used by the sho v8.
I love the fuzzy logic of design philosophy with vr6 heavily offseting the bores in opposite directions and somehow it all seems to work out ok.
Sometimes designers can just do what they feel like.