Mercedes W13

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mantikos
mantikos
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Re: Mercedes W13

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AR3-GP wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:26 pm
organic wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:24 pm
marcel171281 wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:24 pm


I don't believe they have difficulty to get temp in the tyres, otherwise they wouldn't get the hard tyres to work so easily in Zandvoort for instance. Form the outlap on they were quick in that stint.

There are two forms of deg. Wear, the most obvious, but also thermal deg. The latter is the change in chemical composition of the rubber due too long or over exposure to (too) high temps. I believe the Mercedes is very good at the latter, which means they are good in controlling tyre core temps on long stints.

Getting temp in the tyres initially and keeping the peak temps under control are not necessarily connected as one has mostly to do with surface temps and the other with core temps.

This also indicated that the suspension of the Mercedes is not the issue this year. On the contrary, I believe it is their strongest point.
Zandvoort is an outlier to be honest. It has extremely high load on the tyres due to the banking. Merc have had a tyre temperature issue for a long time. Not just all of 2022 bar Hungary and Zandvoort, but in 2021 as well. It's something fundamental to their philosophy I am supposing
It goes back even further. That's why they had devices like the rim heating and DAS.
Agree - they went from eating their tires, to using them on the wrong side (if anyone remembers that) to being too mild on their tires and not being able to get enough heat in them fast enough. The pendulum swung too far the other way.

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continuum16
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Location: Kansas

Re: Mercedes W13

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mantikos wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:25 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:26 pm
organic wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:24 pm


Zandvoort is an outlier to be honest. It has extremely high load on the tyres due to the banking. Merc have had a tyre temperature issue for a long time. Not just all of 2022 bar Hungary and Zandvoort, but in 2021 as well. It's something fundamental to their philosophy I am supposing
It goes back even further. That's why they had devices like the rim heating and DAS.
Agree - they went from eating their tires, to using them on the wrong side (if anyone remembers that) to being too mild on their tires and not being able to get enough heat in them fast enough. The pendulum swung too far the other way.
I also agree. In 2013 they shredded through Pirellis faster than anyone. Since then, they seem to have been unable to consistently find a balance between that problem and their current one without the use of trick suspension/wheel elements (FRIC, rim heating, DAS, etc.). Look back at even the dominant years; tracks which put a heavy emphasis on mechanical grip, tire temp control, and degradation management (especially on the rear) have been a weakness. Monaco, Singapore, even Mexico. Tracks which essentially nullify any high-speed/aero advantage the car might have. Now every weekend looks like Baku 2021, or Singapore 2017, where the car is simply lacking the grip of RB/Ferrari.

The other team which uses the same suspension as Merc? Aston. The other car that woefully struggles to generate/control tire temp? Aston. Coincidence? Maybe, but I doubt. Will be interesting to see if they change it significantly next year. I think the problem is semi-circular though; better aero (which I think we could all admit is at least not as good compared to the field as recent years) would bring more DF and more consistent DF which would work the tires more effectively.
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ringo
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Re: Mercedes W13

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That tyre temp issue is tied to aero consistency.
We know things like brake ducts and rim heating can be tweaked. But it's the aero and how the suspension manages the aero platform that influences how the suspension will be setup and in turn influences wear and temps.

There was a lovely picture in the rb thread with the rb18 at monza almost looking like it was slammed to the ground, especially at the rear. The rb is doing some really magical stuff. all od its systems are harmonized to give the best aero efficiency.
The W13 just seems disjointed.
What's the relationship between ride height and drag?
What if a floor has high mass flow underneath while its skirts sheild the sides?
What if that mass flow is cut off or very low ib the same situation?

regarding the tyre wear. Any relationship with wheel base and tyre wear over the years with these W cars. Wheelbase has hardly been mentioned this year.
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Tzk
Tzk
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Re: Mercedes W13

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ringo wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:09 am
Wheelbase has hardly been mentioned this year.
Probably because all cars more or less got the maximum allowed wheelbase of 3600mm. In the past (2017/18?) the Mercs had a lot more (like 3750mm) and RB was the shortest of all, but still all teams had a wheelbase of >3600mm in 2021.

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Stu
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Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Mercedes W13

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ringo wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:09 am
That tyre temp issue is tied to aero consistency.
We know things like brake ducts and rim heating can be tweaked. But it's the aero and how the suspension manages the aero platform that influences how the suspension will be setup and in turn influences wear and temps.

There was a lovely picture in the rb thread with the rb18 at monza almost looking like it was slammed to the ground, especially at the rear. The rb is doing some really magical stuff. all od its systems are harmonized to give the best aero efficiency.
The W13 just seems disjointed.
What's the relationship between ride height and drag?
What if a floor has high mass flow underneath while its skirts sheild the sides?
What if that mass flow is cut off or very low ib the same situation?

regarding the tyre wear. Any relationship with wheel base and tyre wear over the years with these W cars. Wheelbase has hardly been mentioned this year.
Rim heating (as used previously) is, in effect banned now due to the prescriptiveness of the rules around the ‘cake tin’ brake ducting, larger ‘standard’ wheel-rims and wheel covers.
Mercedes were early masters of this, they were the first out with really ‘weird’ rim designs to control heat retention in the wheel-rim.
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Magicsenna_41
Magicsenna_41
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Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:26 pm

Re: Mercedes W13

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Image

https://www.racefans.net/2022/09/09/202 ... italy-964/

front left looks extreme to me.
other cars out of ascari dont behave like this.
maybe the RedBull but nothing compared to the Merc.

Full gallery of other cars here (scroll down to middle of page)
https://www.racefans.net/2022/09/09/202 ... -pictures/

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Magicsenna_41 wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:20 pm
https://www.racefans.net/2022/09/09/202 ... italy-964/

https://www.racefans.net/2022/09/09/202 ... italy-964/

front left looks extreme to me.
other cars out of ascari dont behave like this.
maybe the RedBull but nothing compared to the Merc.

Full gallery of other cars here (scroll down to middle of page)
https://www.racefans.net/2022/09/09/202 ... -pictures/
What do you mean?
If you are talking about the lifting of the wheel it is the roll bar that prevents it from dropping lower.
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holeindalip
holeindalip
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Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 am
Location: Decatur,IL USA

Re: Mercedes W13

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mantikos wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:25 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:26 pm
organic wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:24 pm


Zandvoort is an outlier to be honest. It has extremely high load on the tyres due to the banking. Merc have had a tyre temperature issue for a long time. Not just all of 2022 bar Hungary and Zandvoort, but in 2021 as well. It's something fundamental to their philosophy I am supposing
It goes back even further. That's why they had devices like the rim heating and DAS.
Agree - they went from eating their tires, to using them on the wrong side (if anyone remembers that) to being too mild on their tires and not being able to get enough heat in them fast enough. The pendulum swung too far the other way.
It wasn't just Merc swapping the tire sides, it was pretty common trend of 2013 up and down the grid. After Silverstone they brought the new construction. Tires and red bull walked the rest of the year.....

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El_KaPpa
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Image
Image
Last edited by El_KaPpa on Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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organic
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Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Mercedes W13

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Image

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prox
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Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:08 pm

Re: Mercedes W13

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Have they dropped "Mercedes' from the team moniker?
AMG Petronas Formula 1 Team

SadgeHands
SadgeHands
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Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:42 pm

Re: Mercedes W13

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prox wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:48 pm
Have they dropped "Mercedes' from the team moniker?
AMG Petronas Formula 1 Team
No. It's still Mercedes-AMG Petronas Formula One team. They've always just used the Mercedes star rather than writing "Mercedes".

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prox
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Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:08 pm

Re: Mercedes W13

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ah ok thanks for that

Evo2racer
Evo2racer
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:05 am

Re: Mercedes W13

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Amazing to hear directly from Toto :
that the w13 (right now) is 10kg overweight and that they brought about 3.5 M of Euro of upgraded parts since the beginning of the season!

Also very important & I interesting to note that Mb Amg didn’t make the W13 lighter because they needed to respect the 2022 budget cap!

OO7
OO7
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Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:49 pm

Re: Mercedes W13

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10kg is roughly worth four tenths per lap around a typical circuit right?