Red Bull RB18

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
Henk_v
Henk_v
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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I dont know how you know, all I know is that I dont believe any of it. Especially not Horner. There are so many futile reasons for this to go wrong that the "weight saving" narrative is just a bit too convenient. Will you ever get a "faulty connector" or "software bug" statement in such cases? Which is actually a likely thing, while I'd need every stretch of my imagination to think how it could be related to weight saving, regarding the behaviour of the DRS flap...

/edit, do you really believe "updates" come prepacked in "packages"? Thats words liberty uses so Americans can digest the difficult topics. Nobody in his right mind would revert to a month old spec on all parts. If you have a specific doubt, you might target a specific part, in which case reverting to the old spec is the least favoured option.

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gandharva
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:19 pm
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Damn media! All liars!

Man this forum has come to an all time low. :(

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Sieper
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: Red Bull RB18

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Weight savings likely make parts less rigid. Less rigid parts are likely flexing more and that could mean the mechanism malfunction sometimes and sometimes not. Stuck, free, just depending on the amount of distortion.

But I am clueless as to what is going on/wrong.

SirBastianVettel
SirBastianVettel
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Sieper wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 6:50 pm
Weight savings likely make parts less rigid. Less rigid parts are likely flexing more and that could mean the mechanism malfunction sometimes and sometimes not. Stuck, free, just depending on the amount of distortion.

But I am clueless as to what is going on/wrong.
Multiple teams had DRS issues this weekend, perhaps the extreme temperatures caused issues?

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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aran.vtec wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 10:51 am
marcel171281 wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 10:32 am
chrisc90 wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 10:16 am
Does anyone know why it’s always Max that has the DRS issues? Both at the end of last season and continuing into this season?

I wonder if there is weight saving going on (as Christian briefly mentioned in an interview after the race) which is affecting performance however, you would expect that to have a lasting effect rather than intermittently work.

So maybe the problem is hydraulic where by the system can’t maintain the pressure required to keep the flap open. Which could explain why it was working on the shorter stints where the system had more chance to build pressure due to the longer distances. I wonder if max ‘skipped’ using DRS on the shorter straight, but used it on the start/finish it would have helped.
I don’t know how the DRS hydraulics system works so I could be completely wrong.

Another theory is the flap is opening too much and drops back down too far which causes the system to fail in the way it does. Almost like a road cars ECU boost PID can be programmed to allow a small ‘overshoot’ or be programmed to bring things in slower the closer it gets to its expected point. I’m sure I’ve seen somewhere DRS flap angle mentioned which could explain a PID theory.

However, it’s more worrying that the issue has never surfaced on Checo’s car (or at least I’ve seen) which is strange as you would expect any weight saving or other performance measures to be echo’d across both cars.

The work they were doing in the garage to the flap wing, sanding, glueing etc would seem to suggest it not being a hydraulic or system issue which adds even more confusion to the mix.

Would love to see them get on top of this issue that is again showing itself even if it means adding a fraction more weight back onto the car. With the slippery straight line speed of the bulls, the DRS helps that little bit more with top end speed.
Yesterdays DRS problem was very different from the problem last year. Last year the opening was never the problem, it was the oscilation of the DRS flap when open, causing cracks at the mounting point of the flap. Also Perez had the same problems last year.

Max's engineer told him to open the DRS after the curb on the main straight. It didn't help all the time, but looked like it opened more often that way. So maybe the vibrations had something to do with it as well.

Also I wonder if the speed when opening the DRS on the main straight is higher than after turn 9. In that case there would be more downforce on the wing, making it harder to open. That could suggest less hydraulic pressure, needed to open it against the downforce at the time.
I also noticed the drs after turn 9 opened without fail every time just on the start finish line where it had issues, Was this the highest df rear wing they have used before? its like it didn't have enough power to keep it open
It was mentioned that the run out of T9 had a tailwind on race day. Whereas there was a headwind on the main straight.

Edax
Edax
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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marcel171281 wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 10:32 am
chrisc90 wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 10:16 am
Does anyone know why it’s always Max that has the DRS issues? Both at the end of last season and continuing into this season?

I wonder if there is weight saving going on (as Christian briefly mentioned in an interview after the race) which is affecting performance however, you would expect that to have a lasting effect rather than intermittently work.

So maybe the problem is hydraulic where by the system can’t maintain the pressure required to keep the flap open. Which could explain why it was working on the shorter stints where the system had more chance to build pressure due to the longer distances. I wonder if max ‘skipped’ using DRS on the shorter straight, but used it on the start/finish it would have helped.
I don’t know how the DRS hydraulics system works so I could be completely wrong.

Another theory is the flap is opening too much and drops back down too far which causes the system to fail in the way it does. Almost like a road cars ECU boost PID can be programmed to allow a small ‘overshoot’ or be programmed to bring things in slower the closer it gets to its expected point. I’m sure I’ve seen somewhere DRS flap angle mentioned which could explain a PID theory.

However, it’s more worrying that the issue has never surfaced on Checo’s car (or at least I’ve seen) which is strange as you would expect any weight saving or other performance measures to be echo’d across both cars.

The work they were doing in the garage to the flap wing, sanding, glueing etc would seem to suggest it not being a hydraulic or system issue which adds even more confusion to the mix.

Would love to see them get on top of this issue that is again showing itself even if it means adding a fraction more weight back onto the car. With the slippery straight line speed of the bulls, the DRS helps that little bit more with top end speed.
Yesterdays DRS problem was very different from the problem last year. Last year the opening was never the problem, it was the oscilation of the DRS flap when open, causing cracks at the mounting point of the flap. Also Perez had the same problems last year.

Max's engineer told him to open the DRS after the curb on the main straight. It didn't help all the time, but looked like it opened more often that way. So maybe the vibrations had something to do with it as well.

Also I wonder if the speed when opening the DRS on the main straight is higher than after turn 9. In that case there would be more downforce on the wing, making it harder to open. That could suggest less hydraulic pressure, needed to open it against the downforce at the time.
My guess is that the issue is not in the DRS hardware. There is little need to go marginal on the force.

Think it is more in safety. Katherin Legge demonstrated in Road America what happens if you enter a corner without RW. No steering and no braking. I guess the same is true for DRS stuck open.

A logical design would IMO be; to have the DRS default closed, and only open by a continuous signal (no latching). It would also not surprise me if there is a sensor driven logic which deactivates the DRS if for instance the car suspects it is off track or otherwise out of control.

That could explain the connection with vibrations although it is odd that the curbs are before the actual deployment line.

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etusch
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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marcel171281 wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 10:32 am
.

Also I wonder if the speed when opening the DRS on the main straight is higher than after turn 9. In that case there would be more downforce on the wing, making it harder to open. That could suggest less hydraulic pressure, needed to open it against the downforce at the time.
Drs was opening at main straights too. it was just closing right away. so I don't think it is prevented by high load.

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Big Tea
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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I did wonder if there was a 'tweak' that was supposed to give some advantage during DRS and it was miscalculated?
Not casting accusations, but if they are not trying things, they should be.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

warpomex
warpomex
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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etusch wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 9:58 pm
marcel171281 wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 10:32 am
.

Also I wonder if the speed when opening the DRS on the main straight is higher than after turn 9. In that case there would be more downforce on the wing, making it harder to open. That could suggest less hydraulic pressure, needed to open it against the downforce at the time.
Drs was opening at main straights too. it was just closing right away. so I don't think it is prevented by high load.
Software issue messing with detection points or deactivation?

Henk_v
Henk_v
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Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2022 12:41 pm

Re: Red Bull RB18

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Edax wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 8:03 pm

A logical design would IMO be; to have the DRS default closed, and only open by a continuous signal (no latching). It would also not surprise me if there is a sensor driven logic which deactivates the DRS if for instance the car suspects it is off track or otherwise out of control.

That could explain the connection with vibrations although it is odd that the curbs are before the actual deployment line.
Imagine the DRS opening unintended. That's an immediate DSQ. There would be multiple mechanisms of closing it in any case of doubt.

ema00
ema00
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:13 pm

Re: Red Bull RB18

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Henk_v wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 6:57 am
Edax wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 8:03 pm

A logical design would IMO be; to have the DRS default closed, and only open by a continuous signal (no latching). It would also not surprise me if there is a sensor driven logic which deactivates the DRS if for instance the car suspects it is off track or otherwise out of control.

That could explain the connection with vibrations although it is odd that the curbs are before the actual deployment line.
Imagine the DRS opening unintended. That's an immediate DSQ. There would be multiple mechanisms of closing it in any case of doubt.
the driver can press the button at any time after the detection zone and the drs will open automatically on the deployment line

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Sieper
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 10:12 pm
I did wonder if there was a 'tweak' that was supposed to give some advantage during DRS and it was miscalculated?
Not casting accusations, but if they are not trying things, they should be.
Yes, I think so too. Likely something is on (or over) the limit. Too important to give it up (since it is so close with Ferrari in qualy) and built in some safety and they can’t get it right.

I do not believe this will go away very quickly.

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Chuckjr
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Couldn’t they make the DRS button a detent type so that when it’s on, it’s depressed and when it’s off it’s flush with the steering wheel? And couldn’t they use a switchgear type that Max (and Checo) could feel engage when it’s pressed? Then it would remove the guessing if it’s on or not. It could auto return to flush when the brakes are pressed or whenever the wing drops. Surely this kind of electronics and function could be easily integrated into the electronics of the car? Or am I dreaming...?
Watching F1 since 1986.

mitodriver
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Chuckjr wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 7:34 am
Couldn’t they make the DRS button a detent type so that when it’s on, it’s depressed and when it’s off it’s flush with the steering wheel? And couldn’t they use a switchgear type that Max (and Checo) could feel engage when it’s pressed? Then it would remove the guessing if it’s on or not. It could auto return to flush when the brakes are pressed or whenever the wing drops. Surely this kind of electronics and function could be easily integrated into the electronics of the car? Or am I dreaming...?
Maybe this video will help to understand how DRS works. I'm sure the teams have a system that the DRS will return when the brakes are pressed.
-.-- --- ..- .-- .. .-.. .-.. --- -. .-.. -.-- ... . . .. - .-- .... . -. -.-- --- ..- --. . - .. -

JethroJet
JethroJet
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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All DRS systems close on application of the brakes. Previously some drivers manually close their DRS prior to braking to ensure the air flow has reattached to the wing before they hit the brakes. I am not sure if this is an issue anymore.

I do agree with Chuckjr, perhaps a hall sensor in the rear wing could be used to confirm if the DRS is active or not, this could then illuminate the DRS button on the wing if it is open.