Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

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F1SC
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Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

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In 2022, the separate external wastegate exhaust pipe has been done away with replaced with a single exit exhaust only.

Does this mean the incredible external wastegate venting noises, especially on the Ferrari PU will no longer be audible?

Ferrari SF71H Wastegate Noise


2022 Ferrari Motor in Alfa Romeo


marcel171281
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Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

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I reckon it won't change. The wastegate exhaust only merges with the engine exhaust a short distance before the exit. As there is no dampers etc in the exhaust, there is nothing to influence the sound.

This rules in only there to prevent teams from using the wastegate flow for aerodynamic purposes.

NL_Fer
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Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

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Sure we will, it will just sound diffferent. 40cm of pipe will not totally change the sound.

The only damping is the turbo and mgu-h, the wastegate bypasses that damping. That is why it changes the sound.

saviour stivala
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Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:02 am
Sure we will, it will just sound diffferent. 40cm of pipe will not totally change the sound.

The only damping is the turbo and mgu-h, the wastegate bypasses that damping. That is why it changes the sound.
Yes the wate-gate bypasses the turbine housing noise dumping because it diverts and bypasses exhaust gases away from turbine housing/from before the turbine housing. The F1 waste-gate does not just relieving turbine housing pressure. in fact the waste-gate has its own exhaust pipe outlet.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:27 pm
Yes the wate-gate bypasses the turbine housing noise dumping because it diverts and bypasses exhaust gases away from turbine housing/from before the turbine housing. The F1 waste-gate does not just relieving turbine housing pressure. in fact the waste-gate has its own exhaust pipe outlet.
regardless of outlet
either the wastegate diverts all the exhaust around the turbine or it doesn't
which does it do ?

saviour stivala
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Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

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All waste-gates as used in formula one diverts/bypass exhaust gases 'away' from turbine housing, this they do at a point before exhaust gases reach turbine housing. And that is why waste-gate has its own exhaust tail-pipe. This is of course when waste-gate is open.

gruntguru
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Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:15 pm
All waste-gates as used in formula one diverts/bypass exhaust gases 'away' from turbine housing, this they do at a point before exhaust gases reach turbine housing. And that is why waste-gate has its own exhaust tail-pipe. This is of course when waste-gate is open.
The wastegate relieves pressure in the exhaust manifold. There is no element blocking flow towards the turbine so it is still possible for some of the flow to pass through the turbine.

The tailpipe is at atmospheric pressure, so wastegate function will be identical whether the outlet is separate or combined.
je suis charlie

Ringleheim
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Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

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How about waiting until Day 1 of the upcoming test, and re-visit the question then?

You'll have your answer in a few minutes.

saviour stivala
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Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

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When a formula one turbo waste-gate is opened it bypasses exhaust gases away from turbine housing, the bypass diversion starts before exhaust enters turbine housing. Because waste-gate is bypassing turbine housing, waste-gate exhaust outlet needs its own outlet piping. As such the ‘’pressure turbine’’ is no more a pressure turbine, which in turn any pressure build-up in exhaust manifolding before turbine is also gone. When a pressure turbine is no more a pressure turbine, any exhaust gases inside the turbine are as good as dead/useless. By eliminating exhaust gases pressure build-up inside turbine housing, and so also inside manifolding, and instead of by exhaust gas pressure spinning the turbine the compressor is sinning by MGH-H, extra power is extracted from the engine. This means engine in ‘electric supercharging mode’ power output is higher than engine in turbocharger mode by just eliminating exhaust back-pressure.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:54 am
... By eliminating exhaust gases pressure build-up inside turbine housing, and so also inside manifolding, and instead of by exhaust gas pressure spinning the turbine the compressor is sinning by MGH-H, extra power is extracted from the engine. This means engine in ‘electric supercharging mode’ power output is higher than engine in turbocharger mode by just eliminating exhaust back-pressure.
false

WGO the 'back pressure' is the same .....
regardless of whether or not the entire exhaust flow bypasses the turbine
the ICE is exhausting to the atmosphere - not to a vacuum

saviour stivala
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Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

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Waste-gate is open, so compressor is driven electrically, less exhaust back pressure gives better power output.
In a turbo-supercharger installation (turbo + MGU-H). All cylinders exhaust into a common collector with 2 exit paths. One through a variable opening waste-gate, and the other through a nozzle aimed at a turbine wheel. With waste-gate fully open, there is no restriction, and collector pressure is nearly atmospheric. As the waste-gate is closed, pressure builds-up in collector. The gas is forced through the nozzle, turning the turbine wheel, which drives the compressor or MGU-H or both together. No power recovery is possible unless the collector is above atmospheric pressure.

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Juzh
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Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:24 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:54 am
... By eliminating exhaust gases pressure build-up inside turbine housing, and so also inside manifolding, and instead of by exhaust gas pressure spinning the turbine the compressor is sinning by MGH-H, extra power is extracted from the engine. This means engine in ‘electric supercharging mode’ power output is higher than engine in turbocharger mode by just eliminating exhaust back-pressure.
false

WGO the 'back pressure' is the same .....
regardless of whether or not the entire exhaust flow bypasses the turbine
the ICE is exhausting to the atmosphere - not to a vacuum
As has been explained by stivala, this is certainly not the case, and teams have been operating in electric supercharge mode when possible maybe since 2014, but have 100% been doing so in 2016. There's obviously a net power gain in doing that at the expense of stored energy.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

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Juzh wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:38 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:24 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:54 am
... By eliminating exhaust gases pressure build-up inside turbine housing, and so also inside manifolding, and instead of by exhaust gas pressure spinning the turbine the compressor is sinning by MGH-H, extra power is extracted from the engine. This means engine in ‘electric supercharging mode’ power output is higher than engine in turbocharger mode by just eliminating exhaust back-pressure.
false

WGO the 'back pressure' is the same .....
regardless of whether or not the entire exhaust flow bypasses the turbine
the ICE is exhausting to the atmosphere - not to a vacuum
As has been explained by stivala, this is certainly not the case, and teams have been operating in electric supercharge mode when possible maybe since 2014, but have 100% been doing so in 2016. There's obviously a net power gain in doing that at the expense of stored energy.
Juzh - you have above 100% misrepresented what I have written

the matter under discussion is whether .....
waste gate open with all exhaust diverted around the turbine and going to ambient via the WG exhaust pipe is different to .....
waste gate open with some exhaust to ambient via WG exhaust pipe and some exhaust to ambient via turbine

not whether electric supercharge mode exists

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

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Juzh wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:38 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:24 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:54 am
... By eliminating exhaust gases pressure build-up inside turbine housing, and so also inside manifolding, and instead of by exhaust gas pressure spinning the turbine the compressor is sinning by MGH-H, extra power is extracted from the engine. This means engine in ‘electric supercharging mode’ power output is higher than engine in turbocharger mode by just eliminating exhaust back-pressure.
false

WGO the 'back pressure' is the same .....
regardless of whether or not the entire exhaust flow bypasses the turbine
the ICE is exhausting to the atmosphere - not to a vacuum
As has been explained by stivala, this is certainly not the case, and teams have been operating in electric supercharge mode when possible maybe since 2014, but have 100% been doing so in 2016. There's obviously a net power gain in doing that at the expense of stored energy.
The turbo hybrid power unit first raced in 2014. In late 2013 the department of engineering science of the university of Oxford who have been commissioned by FERRARI published the first paper titled ‘’Optimal control of formula 1 hybrid electric power unit – optimal control theory and FERRARI turbo-electric hybrid’’. As far as back than the study had already claimed that ‘’Running at max fuel flow permitted and having the waste-gate open with the compressor driven by MGU-H (free load mode) the power of the ICE can be boosted by 20kw/27bhp.

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Juzh
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Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:23 pm
Juzh wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:38 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:24 am

false

WGO the 'back pressure' is the same .....
regardless of whether or not the entire exhaust flow bypasses the turbine
the ICE is exhausting to the atmosphere - not to a vacuum
As has been explained by stivala, this is certainly not the case, and teams have been operating in electric supercharge mode when possible maybe since 2014, but have 100% been doing so in 2016. There's obviously a net power gain in doing that at the expense of stored energy.
Juzh - you have above 100% misrepresented what I have written

the matter under discussion is whether .....
waste gate open with all exhaust diverted around the turbine and going to ambient via the WG exhaust pipe is different to .....
waste gate open with some exhaust to ambient via WG exhaust pipe and some exhaust to ambient via turbine

not whether electric supercharge mode exists
Oh I see it now, I misinterpreted initially. In that case I agree it doesn't make a difference.