Credit where credit is due

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.

How many dance partners?

It takes two to tango.
5
29%
It takes twenty to tango.
2
12%
It takes two-hundred to tango.
10
59%
 
Total votes: 17

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vorticism
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Credit where credit is due

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A team needs a decent driver, there's no doubt. But a driver need a decent car as well as well. Then who, and how many, can be credibly counted toward the creation and set up of that car? A crucial five or ten? Or the whole squad? How interchangeable is the staff in any championship winning team? Including the driver...
Last edited by vorticism on 07 Mar 2022, 01:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Credit where credit is due

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The team is pyramidal in structure - the higher up towards the narrow end you get, the more difficult to easily manage the loss of a member of the team. It's a not a pyramid with a point, however, as at the top there are several key people who are all roughly equally key. Any of them can be replaced, but not always as successfully as others.

Is the driver replaceable? Yes, of course. Are all drivers as good as each other? No. So can replacing one make a difference? Yes, but it can go both ways. Replace a Max with a Nikita and you're going to suffer. Replace a Nikita with a Max and you're going to see improvements in results, although it won't be enough to make Haas a title contender.

Everyone at the team plays a role in delivering results - even the cleaners. Sack all of the cleaning staff and things will eventually go awry.
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JonoNic
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Re: Credit where credit is due

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Apologies if I digress from the subject, but think the driver/rider would play a bigger role in MotoGP than in F1. As the body placement of a rider plays a major role in how the bike performs.

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Last edited by JonoNic on 07 Mar 2022, 01:40, edited 1 time in total.
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vorticism
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Re: Credit where credit is due

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JonoNic wrote:
07 Mar 2022, 01:40
Apologies I digress from the subject, but think the driver/rider would play a bigger role in MotoGP than in F1. As the body placement of a rider plays a major role in how the bike performs.
Who was the guy who started the leg dragging move?

Just_a_fan wrote:
07 Mar 2022, 01:20
Everyone at the team plays a role in delivering results - even the cleaners. Sack all of the cleaning staff and things will eventually go awry.
True, I replaced 'replaceable' with 'interchangeable' in the OP just now to clarify.
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Big Tea
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Re: Credit where credit is due

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vorticism wrote:
07 Mar 2022, 01:44
JonoNic wrote:
07 Mar 2022, 01:40
Apologies I digress from the subject, but think the driver/rider would play a bigger role in MotoGP than in F1. As the body placement of a rider plays a major role in how the bike performs.
Who was the guy who started the leg dragging move?

Just_a_fan wrote:
07 Mar 2022, 01:20
First time I ever saw it was a guy called Malcom Uphill, long ago. No doubt someone did it before him, but he started us all trying to follow, I never could.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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vorticism
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Big Tea wrote:
07 Mar 2022, 02:11
First time I ever saw it was a guy called Malcom Uphill, long ago. No doubt someone did it before him, but he started us all trying to follow, I never could.
The leg dangle move?

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JonoNic
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Re: Credit where credit is due

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vorticism wrote:
Big Tea wrote:
07 Mar 2022, 02:11
First time I ever saw it was a guy called Malcom Uphill, long ago. No doubt someone did it before him, but he started us all trying to follow, I never could.
The leg dangle move?

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Motocross!

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Andres125sx
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Re: Credit where credit is due

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JonoNic wrote:
07 Mar 2022, 05:27
vorticism wrote:
Big Tea wrote:
07 Mar 2022, 02:11
First time I ever saw it was a guy called Malcom Uphill, long ago. No doubt someone did it before him, but he started us all trying to follow, I never could.
The leg dangle move?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/90/52/88 ... 7e1ccd.jpg
Motocross!

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In motocross the leg remains in the peg the whole braking phase, it´s completely different

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JonoNic
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Re: Credit where credit is due

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Andres125sx wrote:
In motocross the leg remains in the peg the whole braking phase, it´s completely different
Ah, you're correct! Just watched that on a YouTube video. Not going to post here because it's off topic.

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Stu
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Re: Credit where credit is due

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vorticism wrote:
07 Mar 2022, 04:37
Big Tea wrote:
07 Mar 2022, 02:11
First time I ever saw it was a guy called Malcom Uphill, long ago. No doubt someone did it before him, but he started us all trying to follow, I never could.
The leg dangle move?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/90/52/88 ... 7e1ccd.jpg
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NathanOlder
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In the MotoGP Paddock its well known as the Doctors Dangle.

https://www.redbull.com/us-en/the-histo ... leg-dangle
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Big Tea
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Re: Credit where credit is due

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vorticism wrote:
07 Mar 2022, 04:37
Big Tea wrote:
07 Mar 2022, 02:11
First time I ever saw it was a guy called Malcom Uphill, long ago. No doubt someone did it before him, but he started us all trying to follow, I never could.
The leg dangle move?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/90/52/88 ... 7e1ccd.jpg
No sorry, I think that is from 'flat track' racing, I thought you meant the one that scrapes leather off the shin pad on corners. soz
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JordanMugen
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Re: Credit where credit is due

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vorticism wrote:
07 Mar 2022, 00:15
How interchangeable is the staff in any championship winning team? Including the driver...
Williams-Renault has the answer of course. You can still win with a 'lesser' driver like Damon Hill instead of Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost or Nigel Mansell, it just takes more attempts. Whereas top-quality drivers like Alain Prost and Nigel Mansell were swapped by Sir Frank Williams more or less interchangeably with no issues.:)

Similarly, chief designer Frank Dernie who went to Lotus was swapped for chief designer Adrian Newey, and as long as both designers are very competent which they are, that was no great issue either.

The only component Sir Frank Williams had difficulty swapping in was the Judd engine, which was not up to it, however the Honda and Renault were seemingly more or less equivalent, and eventually the Renault better than the Honda.

Heck Sir Frank Williams even took swapping to the level of swapping ICI and Camel onto the same yellow background to avoid redesigning the livery, similarly Elf seamlessly replaced Mobil on the Williams livery. :D

Just_a_fan wrote:
07 Mar 2022, 01:20
The team is pyramidal in structure - the higher up towards the narrow end you get, the more difficult to easily manage the loss of a member of the team. It's a not a pyramid with a point, however, as at the top there are several key people who are all roughly equally key. Any of them can be replaced, but not always as successfully as others.
Didn't McLaren try a matrix structure with multiple chief designers which didn't work that well?

JonoNic wrote:
07 Mar 2022, 01:40
Apologies if I digress from the subject, but think the driver/rider would play a bigger role in MotoGP than in F1. As the body placement of a rider plays a major role in how the bike performs.
There was definitely more than one rider who can handle the Ducati (e.g., Stoner and Dovisioso) and more than one rider who can handle the Honda (e.g., Stoner and Marquez). Even if not all the riders can handle either bike. :)

Obviously for Ducati assuming Rossi and then Lorenzo would be an 'equivalent' replacement to Stoner was a hiding to nothing and didn't work out. But then they did stumble upon Dovisioso who could ride the Ducati correctly, so go figure! :)

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vorticism
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So the smaller the vehicle gets, the more important the pilot becomes.

Image


Or does it...

Image
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Stu
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Re: Credit where credit is due

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vorticism wrote:
08 Mar 2022, 20:26
So the smaller the vehicle gets, the more important the pilot becomes.

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2008/ ... y_0714.jpg


Or does it...

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dtLQax6byII/hqdefault.jpg
The cycling comparison does bear comparison with F1, no matter how good your ‘star’ rider is, if the teamwork is not up to scratch they become an also-ran.
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