intake and exhaust valve design and calculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
echedey
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intake and exhaust valve design and calculation

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hello howdy does anyone know of any engineering books on the design and calculation of the sizing of intake and exhaust valves, intake and exhaust ports.

Hoffman900
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Re: intake and exhaust valve design and calculation

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echedey wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:58 am
hello howdy does anyone know of any engineering books on the design and calculation of the sizing of intake and exhaust valves, intake and exhaust ports.
Buy a 1D gas dynamics simulation program like EngMod4t, GT-Power, Lotus (unsupported now), and start there.

Other than that, buy Lumley's book and Dr. Blair's book and learn. You've got a big mountain to climb in learning.

gruntguru
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Re: intake and exhaust valve design and calculation

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+1 8)
je suis charlie

Jokeri
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Re: intake and exhaust valve design and calculation

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You need to figure out the Cd values of the port+valve combo to get more accurate values out of the 1d simulation.
If you manage to do that, please update this thread and let us know how you've done it.

Hoffman900
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Re: intake and exhaust valve design and calculation

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Jokeri wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:04 pm
You need to figure out the Cd values of the port+valve combo to get more accurate values out of the 1d simulation.
If you manage to do that, please update this thread and let us know how you've done it.
Who was this directed at?

Rodak
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Re: intake and exhaust valve design and calculation

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'The Scientific Design of Exhaust and Intake Systems' by Philip H. Smith; though old it might be a good place to start.

Hoffman900
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Re: intake and exhaust valve design and calculation

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Rodak wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:51 pm
'The Scientific Design of Exhaust and Intake Systems' by Philip H. Smith; though old it might be a good place to start.
It’s severely dated and Lumley’s “Engines: An Introduction” and Dr. Blair’s “Design and Simulation of 4 Stroke Engines” are great places to start for the same effort.

The Honda Research Library is good as well.

Forums can be good, but you have to be very very careful about who you read from and where at. Forums are mostly dead, but there is some good info from the mid 2000s when industry people seemed more inclined to use them.

Both of those books will also only discuss theory. A lot of tricks out there you’re not going to find elsewhere.

Best bet is to use something like EngMod4t or GT-Power, model a known engine, and then dig in to learn why it does what it does.

echedey
echedey
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Re: intake and exhaust valve design and calculation

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I'm a bit of a maniac with my stuff, in Spanish there is little information on how to design and calculate the geometries of an engine, and on engine design, so I have to resort to English and German forums and pages where people who are experts and who know how to do it, I need information from abroad, I collect information, I research and from there I start to do my tests and calculations, so I look for books on engine design or software.

Rodak
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Re: intake and exhaust valve design and calculation

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The Lumley book is $4.00 USD on abe.com. The Blair book is a bit pricier at $125.00.

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Bandit1216
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Re: intake and exhaust valve design and calculation

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Ola

Same problem here with Dutch. The main reason I'm on English forums. For my Peugeots, my Suz bandit, and F1 alike. The info is just better.

I've read a lot on this. Even though real flow benching is not my own experience, I have seen comments of even the best class winning tuners that it's freaking hard. The worst flowing heads sometimes make the best power and torque. And even when you do it well, inlet, outlet and mapping can turn it upside down again after that.

Personally I have an 1.6 16v with only some polishing. Not even polishing actually, just fix the faults from mass production and it runs a treat. With (in theory) far to big, 46mm, throttle bodies and a standard cam, (35cm long inlet track though) and on a modest 2 inch, 2 damper exhaust. So with the rules broken (too big inlets on a mild cam) it's got me a decent increase in power, and more important, torque from 1500 to 7500. The only disadvantage of this setup is I have 80% torque on 5% throttle at low rpm. Quite sure I would hit 190 bph with a switch to hot cam, but I'm not gonna because it's a street car. So even after reading in a lot, breaking the rules, I still don't understand how it translates. And I've not even started to grasp rod lengths/stoke relevance.

But it is indeed a very interesting topic imo. Just saying that although it's interesting, it looks like voodoo sometimes. At least to me it does.
But just suppose it weren't hypothetical.

J.A.W.
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Re: intake and exhaust valve design and calculation

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echedey wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:58 am
hello howdy does anyone know of any engineering books on the design and calculation of the sizing of intake and exhaust valves, intake and exhaust ports.
Check the article linked below. It gives a dissertation on the change from an SOHC 'hemi' 2V cylinder
head to the Cosworth design DOHC 4V type on inline six M-B engines of a few decades ago.

It is in German, but the diagrams are captioned in English as well. As an evaluation of the alteration
in characteristics shown on an otherwise essentially identical 'short block', it will give an idea.

http://www.pvv.org/~syljua/merc/M104Motor.pdf
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
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Re: intake and exhaust valve design and calculation

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Bandit1216 wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:00 am
Ola

Same problem here with Dutch. The main reason I'm on English forums. For my Peugeots, my Suz bandit, and F1 alike. The info is just better.

I've read a lot on this. Even though real flow benching is not my own experience, I have seen comments of even the best class winning tuners that it's freaking hard. The worst flowing heads sometimes make the best power and torque. And even when you do it well, inlet, outlet and mapping can turn it upside down again after that.

Personally I have an 1.6 16v with only some polishing. Not even polishing actually, just fix the faults from mass production and it runs a treat. With (in theory) far to big, 46mm, throttle bodies and a standard cam, (35cm long inlet track though) and on a modest 2 inch, 2 damper exhaust. So with the rules broken (too big inlets on a mild cam) it's got me a decent increase in power, and more important, torque from 1500 to 7500. The only disadvantage of this setup is I have 80% torque on 5% throttle at low rpm. Quite sure I would hit 190 bph with a switch to hot cam, but I'm not gonna because it's a street car. So even after reading in a lot, breaking the rules, I still don't understand how it translates. And I've not even started to grasp rod lengths/stoke relevance.

But it is indeed a very interesting topic imo. Just saying that although it's interesting, it looks like voodoo sometimes. At least to me it does.

"...80% torque on 5% throttle at low rpm."

Is that a guess, or a quantitative (measured) value? Seems a bit unlikely, at face value.

Ricardo designed a single throttle-body/plenum chamber into multiple ram-tubes for BMW's K1600
to enable a good level of low rpm/low throttle torque, yet with smooth transition through to an
8,000rpm redline, as deemed important for a large/heavy/powerful motorcycle...
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

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Bandit1216
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Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:55 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: intake and exhaust valve design and calculation

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5% throttle yes, from my programmable ECU, torques is an estimate from data lodging. But it's not strange when you have relative big throttles. But it does confirm some tuning articles I've read that the inlet track is far more important than the butterfly valve size. I also have to use Alpha N because of it, and even a diesel brake booster pump, because even with an vacuum manifold I have almost no useful map signal. I also see that on low rpm VE (fuel) is about 80% at only 5% throttle and high rpm that's a different story.

There a video on youtube where some guy takes inlet stack lengths to the extreme testing decent high rpm engine. Pointless long stacks turn it in a diesel.

For example; the way my car is setup and the engine I use, I have the possibility to use very long trumpets. About 35 cm from ambient to the inlet valve and no bends at all. You can see the valves from the filter from 35 cm. Most tuning part suppliers tell everyone short is best for high rpm. Yes, 15 000 indeed, but not for any road car. So is that best for their sales figures or best for tuning? Google pictures for Super 2000 or Super 1600 inlets and you'll know. Same goes with 4 in 1 versus 4 into 2 into 1 exhaust manifolds. Is 4 in 1 better for high rpm, or just easier to weld and sell?

A bit common sense and a whole lot of stubborn basterd from my side, did get me a fairly good road engine. Without flow bench and dyno I did get a 1600 that pulls like a train from 1500 to 7500 and idles smoothly. More then happy.

Just want to say inlet lengths, throttle size, exhaust setup, valve angles, port geo, cam lift, cam duration, cam overlap etc, etc, The result will always be an mix of all factors. So only people with very deep pockets can really predict this all. The rest (like me) is always guestimating at best or doing trail and error. And even when you do fancy 150 bhp/liter, one must go 10 000 rpm +. That's when the flow bench and dyno is needed and that's also when the H-beam rods, solid lifters and 300 degree cams are needed. And the deep pockets.

(just my opinion)
But just suppose it weren't hypothetical.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: intake and exhaust valve design and calculation

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No, "...Voodoo" or other 'hocus pocus' isn't needed here, nor will extra-long inlet tracts convert your SI
engine into a "...Diesel". For sure though, "...Deep pockets" have assisted the engineering required to
utilize long understood gas dynamics efficaciously, in order to ensure best possible ICE performance.

Kevin Cameron provides a typical, easily understood overview of dynamics per the OP, here:

https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article ... /1/g-spots

& this link below provides a gas-flow calculator to preview whatever parametrics the OP wants to try:

http://www.wallaceracing.com/runnertorquecalc.php

If of interest, similar calculators can provide values which consider the effects of exhaust ducts,
from individual pipes for max rpm, through combinations of manifold/collectors for multiple cyls,
& 'max average powerband' developments...
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).