Where does 46kg come from?!

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PlatinumZealot
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Where does 46kg come from?!

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Can bigger wheels, a tunnel and bigger wings really reall add this much weight that teams couldn't meet the 795kg minimum weight limits? It's now agreed to be raised to 798kg, 46 kg heavier than last year's minimum weight!

https://www.racefans.net/2022/03/17/fia ... -to-798kg/

That's almost sports car weight?! #-o
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Hoffman900
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Re: Where does 46kg come from?!

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We road race an Alfa GTV in vintage racing. It’s as heavy as that (minus the driver). Granted, a F1 car is a wee bit faster.

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JordanMugen
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Re: Where does 46kg come from?!

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:42 pm
Where does 46kg come from?!
+ ~20kg increased safety standards for the tub (as well as the minimum cockpit dimensions being physically larger)
+ ~17kg larger wheels & tyres
+ ~1kg wheel covers
+ ~1kg BBS wheels a little heavier than the original OZ wheels
+ larger brakes
+ front wheel aero fairing
+ stronger wheel tethers
[Edit, I missed one: +1kg on the minimum power unit weight from 150 in 2021 to 151kg in 2022, not sure why.]

The rest is miscellaneous I guess. But you can rest assured that approximately half the increase is due to all-important safety improvements. :)

Ross Brawn, F1:
"There's a lot of new safety initiatives after the terrible accident in Spa a couple of years ago in F2, and the accident with [Romain] Grosjean, and one or two other things. So the weight limit, or the weight of the cars, increased."

Simone Resta, HAAS:
"And last but not least I think the weight has been a real struggle, I suppose for everyone, because the amount of things that changed on the car – tyres, rims, brakes, safety requirements, bodywork etcetera – has induced a massive amount of weight increase on the cars which we really fought hard to try to contain, so that has been a really important point for all the project."

Mike Krack, Aston Martin:
"There has been a lot of changes also for safety, so most teams I think we have found out are struggling with this minimum."

Edit -- If we go further back and compare 2014 690kg to 2022 798kg, we have:
+ 5kg increased driver allowance from 75kg to 80kg
+ increased power unit weight allowance
+ ~20kg for halo & halo mounting reinforcements
+ ~10kg for intermediate increases in crash testing difficulty
+ ~20kg 2022 safety increases
+ ~5kg wider tyres in 2017
+ ~19kg larger wheels, wheel covers in 2022

So most of the 108kg difference can be explained logically, and over half is due to safety improvements. :)
Last edited by JordanMugen on Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

Henri
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Re: Where does 46kg come from?!

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JordanMugen wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:02 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:42 pm
Where does 46kg come from?!
+ ~20kg increased safety standards for the tub (as well as the minimum cockpit dimensions being physically larger)
+ ~17kg larger wheels & tyres
+ ~1kg wheel covers
+ ~1kg BBS wheels a little heavier than the original OZ wheels
+ larger brakes
+ front wheel aero fairing
+ stronger wheel tethers

The rest is miscellaneous I guess. But you can rest assured that approximately half the increase is due to all-important safety improvements. :)

Ross Brawn, F1:
"There's a lot of new safety initiatives after the terrible accident in Spa a couple of years ago in F2, and the accident with [Romain] Grosjean, and one or two other things. So the weight limit, or the weight of the cars, increased."

Simone Resta, HAAS:
"And last but not least I think the weight has been a real struggle, I suppose for everyone, because the amount of things that changed on the car – tyres, rims, brakes, safety requirements, bodywork etcetera – has induced a massive amount of weight increase on the cars which we really fought hard to try to contain, so that has been a really important point for all the project."

Mike Krack, Aston Martin:
"There has been a lot of changes also for safety, so most teams I think we have found out are struggling with this minimum."

Edit -- If we go further back and compare 2014 690kg to 2022 798kg, we have:
+ 5kg increased driver allowance from 75kg to 80kg
+ increased power unit weight allowance
+ ~20kg for halo & halo mounting reinforcements
+ ~10kg for intermediate increases in crash testing difficulty
+ ~20kg 2022 safety increases
+ ~5kg wider tyres in 2017
+ ~19kg larger wheels, wheel covers in 2022

So most of the 108kg difference can be explained logically, and over half is due to safety improvements. :)
How much does that cost in lap time 1sec 5tenths ?

the EDGE
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Re: Where does 46kg come from?!

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Henri wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:34 am
How much does that cost in lap time 1sec 5tenths ?
Lap time loss is irrelevant, nobody can perceive it

The issue with weight affects the raceability of the cars, they don’t respond as quickly to driver input with change of direction, acceleration, braking etc. and puts more stress on tyres, making CQC harder

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JordanMugen
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Re: Where does 46kg come from?!

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Henri wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:34 am
How much does that cost in lap time 1sec 5tenths ?
According to Newey, the 108kg increase from 2014 could be worth about 3 seconds per lap (though 100kg difference is perhaps outside the range within which such model is accurate!).

Newey:
You've got to remember that, very roughly speaking - it, of course, varies from circuit to circuit - but you're talking roughly three-eighths of a second per 10 kilos.
The ~50kg weight increase for safety improvements and 5kg increased driver weight allowance is not going anywhere of course, so that extra 55kg has to stay. (75kg was too ambitious for the taller drivers and was not a healthy weight for them.)

Newey:
In a few short years, the weight limit has gone from low six hundred (kilos), but carrying 30 or 40 kilos of ballast, to now cars that are 880 (kilos), and we're all working like mad to try and get to the [current] 795 (kilo) limit.

I think [F1 cars should be] lightweight and [focused on] aerodynamic efficiency.
A change from ~170kg hybrid power units back to ~95kg 2.4L V8s (or even ~70kg without ballast on the 2.4L V8) could very well be done to save up to 100kg, but it seems the regulators have no appetite for that. :?:

The wider tyres, 13" 2016 vs 13" 2017, only add 5kg so IMO they should stay (at least on the rear anyway, perhaps put the fronts back to 245mm width as per 1992), but Newey may be in favour of the low-drag narrow rear tyres instead. :?: The wheel covers & fairings are useful and could stay IMO. You could probably drop from 18" back to 13" and drop the brakes back to the old size to save about 20kg though.

So going from a hybrid back to V8s and going from 18" back to 13" could probably save about ~95kg all-up, while keeping all the safety improvements? :?: :)

So that would be the 2013 minimum weight of 642kg plus 62kg (5kg driver allowance, 5kg in wider 2017 tyres, 50kg in safety improvements, 2kg wheel covers & fairings) for a potential racing weight of about 704kg with V8+13" tyres, rather than 798kg in 2022. Giving an improvement of just over ~2.5 seconds per lap, minus the laptime losses from only having 750hp instead of 1000hp, and the losses from needing to carry more fuel at the start of the race . :)

Interview: https://racingnews365.com/newey-on-f1s- ... -challenge

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Jambier
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Re: Where does 46kg come from?!

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JordanMugen wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:02 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:42 pm
Where does 46kg come from?!
Edit -- If we go further back and compare 2014 690kg to 2022 798kg, we have:

+ 5kg increased driver allowance from 75kg to 80kg
+ increased power unit weight allowance
+ ~20kg for halo & halo mounting reinforcements
+ ~10kg for intermediate increases in crash testing difficulty
+ ~20kg 2022 safety increases
+ ~5kg wider tyres in 2017
+ ~19kg larger wheels, wheel covers in 2022

So most of the 108kg difference can be explained logically, and over half is due to safety improvements. :)
Some are goods, like driver, or security, but the last one regarding wheels and tyres is a shame. This is a place you don't want to increase weight, and it is not bringing more safety or show or anything

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Where does 46kg come from?!

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From FP1 today Kravitz saying new wheels are 17kg heavier collectively.
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Big Tea
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Re: Where does 46kg come from?!

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Henri wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:34 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:02 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:42 pm
Where does 46kg come from?!
+ ~20kg increased safety standards for the tub (as well as the minimum cockpit dimensions being physically larger)
+ ~17kg larger wheels & tyres
+ ~1kg wheel covers
+ ~1kg BBS wheels a little heavier than the original OZ wheels
+ larger brakes
+ front wheel aero fairing
+ stronger wheel tethers

The rest is miscellaneous I guess. But you can rest assured that approximately half the increase is due to all-important safety improvements. :)

Ross Brawn, F1:
"There's a lot of new safety initiatives after the terrible accident in Spa a couple of years ago in F2, and the accident with [Romain] Grosjean, and one or two other things. So the weight limit, or the weight of the cars, increased."

Simone Resta, HAAS:
"And last but not least I think the weight has been a real struggle, I suppose for everyone, because the amount of things that changed on the car – tyres, rims, brakes, safety requirements, bodywork etcetera – has induced a massive amount of weight increase on the cars which we really fought hard to try to contain, so that has been a really important point for all the project."

Mike Krack, Aston Martin:
"There has been a lot of changes also for safety, so most teams I think we have found out are struggling with this minimum."

Edit -- If we go further back and compare 2014 690kg to 2022 798kg, we have:
+ 5kg increased driver allowance from 75kg to 80kg
+ increased power unit weight allowance
+ ~20kg for halo & halo mounting reinforcements
+ ~10kg for intermediate increases in crash testing difficulty
+ ~20kg 2022 safety increases
+ ~5kg wider tyres in 2017
+ ~19kg larger wheels, wheel covers in 2022

So most of the 108kg difference can be explained logically, and over half is due to safety improvements. :)
How much does that cost in lap time 1sec 5tenths ?
And in green relevence, transport. If 10% of fuel makes a difference this must far out weigh it
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vorticism
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Re: Where does 46kg come from?!

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It's a little late to be complaining about car weight and asking from whence it came. The cars will get heavier before they get lighter (just look at EVs), unless the outside world which shapes F1, changes. So, what is being lamented ITT exactly? Health and safety, and parity, and cost-cutting, and greenwashing, do not add lightness. To discuss the reasons for heavier cars would entail a forbidden political discussion.

Much of the weight gains were found in the hybrid era. Few if any of the sporting professionals were interested in it, the fans weren’t calling for it, it arrived from manufacturer interest which was a reflection of political pressure, and a byproduct of F1 becoming dependent upon certain types of funding. So F1 got the lower power:weight ratio lawnmower sounding engines with good gas mileage, because it was determined by outsiders that motorsport should become an R&D lab for politically correct production automotive powertrains. As it relates, the moves to mass-market-ize F1 by Liberty™ and the FIA only worsens things as far as making F1 less F1. In pursuit of money alone, the European sport is now literally wearing fake cowboy hats and fake ushankas and fake sombreros. Money is killing F1, ironically, and the greed seems to correlate with kg.

To paraphrase Carl Sagan: if you want to remove the halo, or a battery pack, or a rulebook chapter, from an F1 car, you must first restructure world governments.
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Mogster
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Re: Where does 46kg come from?!

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A lot of the weight an has been safety stuff. Even an F2 car weights 750kgs now.

I thought the hybrid PUs weighed around 145kgs minimum, that’s ICE, ES, MGU K/H there’s a page on the Merc website saying that. Maybe that dowsing include some stuff.

https://www.mercedes-amg-hpp.com/formul ... ine-facts/#

The lightest V10s weighed around 90kg didn’t they and that was expensive development towards funky alloys with poor longevity. Try to make a 3.5 V10 last 8 weekends and how heavy would it be? Then there’s power output, 1000 bhp would seem an F1 minimum now, an Indycar 2.2 V6Tmakes 600 bhp and weighs similar to an F1 hybrid PU it seems, 150 kg? It’s easy to say replace the hybrid PU with a light, noisy, cheap 1000hp engine but how practical is that really?

I’d very much like to see shorter wheelbase lighter cars but can’t really see where the weight savings are going to come from. Maybe it’s worth starting an FIA weight reduction working group? It seems to have worked for aero wake. I thought the next integration of F1 cars are supposed to be smaller/shorter but building on this low wake aero philosophy.

As an aside, heavy modern sports road cars have 4WS for agility, Porsche in particular uses this. Why not have 4WS F1 cars, could improve low speed agility?

OO7
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Re: Where does 46kg come from?!

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One of the lightest V10s was BMWs P85, before the sporting regs demanded engines cover double the mileage previously planned, forcing BMW to stop the project. The P85 was only 82kg.

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Mogster
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Re: Where does 46kg come from?!

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OO7 wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:53 am
One of the lightest V10s was BMWs P85, before the sporting regs demanded engines cover double the mileage previously planned, forcing BMW to stop the project. The P85 was only 82kg.
So basically it never raced because it was too fragile.

I wonder how heavy a 900-1000hp 3.5l V10 would be if it had to last for 8 events? You’d have to re-instate refuelling also.

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Re: Where does 46kg come from?!

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CMSMJ1
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Re: Where does 46kg come from?!

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The cars will always expand to fill the space and weight allocated for them.

If you set the minimum weight at 750kg - they would find the ways to get down to it.

if you mandated shorter cars, less open floor without bodywork over it - they would shrink the footprint of the cars
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