## Aero analysis for F1 2022 based on CFD result

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
godlameroso
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### Re: Aero analysis for F1 2022 based on CFD result

Fluido wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:07 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:01 pm

The strakes at the front are basically static fans, they push air outward instead of letting it go rearward, less airmass means less air pressure. Less air pressure means more acceleration of upstream air, more momentum, means less static pressure(up to a point).
Dont agree with this logic, if you want less airmass than you can simply put plate to the ground at front bumper and stop airflow completly.

Idea is to increase airflow under car not decrease.

Maybe they use vanes to produce vortices to seal side of flor, because they cant use skirts that touch road...
What happens when you increase the airflow under the car? Does the pressure in a balloon go up or down if you increase the airflow into it? Also putting a plate to the ground is 1, not allowed, 2, doesn't work because the air will spill in from any gap. 3, If you stop the air from flowing, you slow it down and raise its static pressure.
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Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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### Re: Aero analysis for F1 2022 based on CFD result

Fluido wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:15 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:53 pm
I imagine aero yaw forces could work to increase or decrease inertia of the vehicle.
You are violate basics physics axioms.
Inertia is the property of mass, not aerodynmic forces.
there are such things as added mass effects

Fluido
Fluido
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### Re: Aero analysis for F1 2022 based on CFD result

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:45 pm
Does the pressure in a balloon go up or down if you increase the airflow into it? Also putting a plate to the ground is 1, not allowed, 2, doesn't work because the air will spill in from any gap. 3, If you stop the air from flowing, you slow it down and raise its static pressure.
Airflow in ballon is allways zero, air is not moving..so question is wrong

For sure if you stop airflow under the car ,static pressure will rise

godlameroso
305
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Location: Miami FL

### Re: Aero analysis for F1 2022 based on CFD result

Vanja #66 wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:07 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:21 pm
When I put it back together, sure.
Good luck with that!

Until then, you might want to contemplate on a few things.

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:53 pm
while weight is increased inertia is not
If inertia of the car is not increased with downforce (ie just mass in this case, ie weight) meaning the braking force doesn't have to deal with more mass to produce the same deceleration and should be better with increased drag (which inevitably comes with aero package), why is the braking worse? Could the aero balance be too much on the rear axle, unloading the front and decreasing front tyre traction - leading to poor braking performance?

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:53 pm
I could use more power, I'm pretty much flat through turn 1
If you are flat out, ie power limited, what is causing it? Could it be drag?

How come increased weight with downforce doesn't push you out of the corner? Is it maybe not an increase in weight, but rather an increase in vertical load? (weight is a type of vertical load, but not every vertical load is (a) weight)

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:53 pm
I imagine aero yaw forces could work to increase or decrease inertia of the vehicle
How can any external force change the inertia of the car, ie change its mass, center of mass and/or mass distribution? (parts flying of the car is not what I'm pointing at)

If the inertia doesn't actually change, could the aerodynamic side forces influence the behaviour, ie car dynamics?
Braking is worse because the drag and aero forces increase the braking capacity and my little single piston calipers can't use all the braking grip available. I'm cracking rotors, bending pads, and boiling fluid. The mass of air acting on the car is producing that drag, the effect is basically that of a heavier car on the stock components. My braking distance is shorter, obviously, and because I can brake much deeper into corners, and can trail brake harder, I need bigger brakes to take advantage of the extra grip.

An external force acting on the car is adding more weight to the suspension. Air is a physical object it has mass, force = mass times acceleration right? Aero forces are the result of air mass accelerating and decelerating over an object. Just like a vertical stabilizer on the plane resists side thrust and thus adverse yaw, and the horizontal stabilizer produces downforce to resist the nose up attitude on a plane. So too does the end plate resist side thrust and thus increases the inertia of a vehicle on turn in.
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godlameroso
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Location: Miami FL

### Re: Aero analysis for F1 2022 based on CFD result

Fluido wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:56 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:45 pm
Does the pressure in a balloon go up or down if you increase the airflow into it? Also putting a plate to the ground is 1, not allowed, 2, doesn't work because the air will spill in from any gap. 3, If you stop the air from flowing, you slow it down and raise its static pressure.
Airflow in ballon is allways zero, air is not moving..so question is wrong

For sure if you stop airflow under the car ,static pressure will rise
Ok, so we agree the air has to keep moving, and why does the air have to keep moving? Because if it slows down, static pressure rises. Which means fast moving air is low pressure, why is it low pressure? Because the air spends less time bouncing against the walls and thus exerts less pressure on them. If we reduce the air mass, the effect is similar, less air molecules to interact with the walls and exert pressure.
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Fluido
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### Re: Aero analysis for F1 2022 based on CFD result

Maybe this toys can show undertray?

godlameroso
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Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

### Re: Aero analysis for F1 2022 based on CFD result

Fluido wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:03 pm
Maybe this toys can show undertray?

https://www.cdn-docs-ck.com/docs/bilde ... 309805.jpg
If you have Assetto Corsa, you can look at the undertray of 3 LMP1 cars and a bunch of Ferrari F1 cars in the showroom. They're legit as the models were made with the original CAD drawings.
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Fluido
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### Re: Aero analysis for F1 2022 based on CFD result

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:02 pm

Which means fast moving air is low pressure, why is it low pressure? Because the air spends less time bouncing against the walls and thus exerts less pressure on them. If we reduce the air mass the effect is similar, less air molecules to interact with the walls and exert pressure.
Wrong.
Speed does not produce low pressure, increasing(accelerating) it does.

If speed produce low pressure, aircraft altimeter(he read static pressure from static port) will read higher and higher altitude as aircraft speed up, even if fly in horizontal line..

http://www.prirodopolis.hr/Bernoulli-Co ... noulli.mp4

godlameroso
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Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

### Re: Aero analysis for F1 2022 based on CFD result

Fluido wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:32 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:02 pm

Which means fast moving air is low pressure, why is it low pressure? Because the air spends less time bouncing against the walls and thus exerts less pressure on them. If we reduce the air mass the effect is similar, less air molecules to interact with the walls and exert pressure.
Wrong.
Speed does not produce low pressure, increasing(accelerating) it does.

If speed produce low pressure, aircraft altimeter(he read static pressure from static port) will read higher and higher altitude as aircraft speed up, even if fly in horizontal line..

http://www.prirodopolis.hr/Bernoulli-Co ... noulli.mp4
What if you're accelerating air into the side of a barn, does the pressure go down or up?
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vorticism
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### Re: Aero analysis for F1 2022 based on CFD result

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:58 pm
Fluido wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:15 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:53 pm

I imagine aero yaw forces could work to increase or decrease inertia of the vehicle.
You are violate basics physics axioms.

Inertia is the property of mass, not aerodynmic forces.
Air has no mass then?
Lift does not increase the mass of the wing. Barn drafts would have a negligible effect on the weight of the air inside the barn. There are generally not air pockets of considerable size within wings, even if there were, fluctuations in air mass within them would be negligible as a bouyant lifting force compared to aerodynamic lift.

Fluido
Fluido
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### Re: Aero analysis for F1 2022 based on CFD result

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:36 pm
Fluido wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:32 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:02 pm

Which means fast moving air is low pressure, why is it low pressure? Because the air spends less time bouncing against the walls and thus exerts less pressure on them. If we reduce the air mass the effect is similar, less air molecules to interact with the walls and exert pressure.
Wrong.
Speed does not produce low pressure, increasing(accelerating) it does.

If speed produce low pressure, aircraft altimeter(he read static pressure from static port) will read higher and higher altitude as aircraft speed up, even if fly in horizontal line..

http://www.prirodopolis.hr/Bernoulli-Co ... noulli.mp4
What if you're accelerating air into the side of a barn, does the pressure go down or up?
What is side of barn?
English is not my mother language..

godlameroso
305
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

### Re: Aero analysis for F1 2022 based on CFD result

vorticism wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:40 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:58 pm
Fluido wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:15 pm

You are violate basics physics axioms.

Inertia is the property of mass, not aerodynmic forces.
Air has no mass then?
Lift does not increase the mass of the wing. Barn drafts would have a negligible effect on the weight of the air inside the barn. There are generally not air pockets of considerable size within wings, even if there were, fluctuations in air mass within them would be negligible as a bouyant lifting force compared to aerodynamic lift.
Lift is a force, the force is generated by air pressure, pressure is a result of mass x acceleration. If air had no mass, there would be no aerodynamic forces, period. If I sit on you, you have more pressure on your back, gravity is accelerating me over you, and you experience a downward force. Downforce is the same thing except less dense.
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vorticism
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### Re: Aero analysis for F1 2022 based on CFD result

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:50 pm
Lift is a force, the force is generated by air pressure, pressure is a result of mass x acceleration. If air had no mass, there would be no aerodynamic forces, period.
Correct. However you are claiming that a gas (atmosphere in this case) can imparting mass to a solid object passing through it.

godlameroso
305
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

### Re: Aero analysis for F1 2022 based on CFD result

vorticism wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:58 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:50 pm
Lift is a force, the force is generated by air pressure, pressure is a result of mass x acceleration. If air had no mass, there would be no aerodynamic forces, period.
Correct. However you are claiming that a gas (atmosphere in this case) can imparting mass to a solid object passing through it.
Well any object that passes through the air has stagnation regions, those stagnation regions, and areas of relative high pressure are exerting the pressure from their static air mass on the solid object passing through it.

Remember the air is pretty much still, save for any gusts, it's the car that's moving, which is the opposite of a wind tunnel, and somehow a wind tunnel is an essential tool.
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Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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### Re: Aero analysis for F1 2022 based on CFD result

Wow, this thread is totally messed up now. For a technical thread, there's a lot of hocus pocus being spouted.
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